Dunkirk Spitfire WIP update

[bazzar]

Final touches happening. Currently at work on the Mk1A "Battle of Britain" version which will come with it.:engel016:

[Bradburger]

Looking good Baz.


Just a couple of quick observations though.


I notice for some reason the elevators are the extended horn balance type (Mod 789), and that the hydraulic tank is missing behind frame 11 (the frame behind the pilot's seat) on the right hand side. This was a feature of all MK.Is with a hand pumped hydraulic system, as fitted (and can be seen) on both P9374, and N3200.


I also note that the gun barrels have flash eliminators on them (and normally only on the outer 2 guns), but by the time of P9374, they would have been dispensed with.

Cheers

Paul

[bazzar]

Duely noted thanks Paul.

[YoYo]

Maybe the nexte something from Germany side or.... Japanese ?
Its a big leak of planes here... not any good Zero for example so no competitors here : ). The winner takes is all. :very_drunk:

[eddie]

Nice looking Spitfire Baz! Any chance of an updated version of Baders Bus!?! LOL

[bazzar]

It is interesting that not too many people are aware of the Zero we built for Just Flight. It is the perfect partner for the JF Corsair or our Helldiver.:engel016::engel016:

[bazzar]

Nice looking Spitfire Baz! Any chance of an updated version of Baders Bus!?! LOL

always a possibility....:engel016:

[huub vink]

Great images of a beautiful model. :encouragement:

I love it!
Huub

[bazzar]

Hey Paul (bradburger) are you sure you mean right side? I see the oxy bottle there but not a hydraulic reservoir. Do you or anyone have a clear pic please? For some reason, I can't find one for this type of Spit. The gear control changed on the Mk1A. Also, are people going to be happy with 30 pumps to get the gear down? :engel016:

[ftl818]

Hey Paul (bradburger) are you sure you mean right side? I see the oxy bottle there but not a hydraulic reservoir. Do you or anyone have a clear pic please? For some reason, I can't find one for this type of Spit. The gear control changed on the Mk1A. Also, are people going to be happy with 30 pumps to get the gear down? :engel016:

Yes please, I would more than happy to pump the landing gear manually. Spitfire wobble! Please go for maximum authenticity. I think the hydraulic reservoir is mounted in the engine bay on the firewall, there is however an emergency carbon dioxde bottle on the right side of the cockpit. https://books.google.nl/books?id=wjOpAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT50&lpg=PT50&dq=spitfire+manual+hydraulics&source=bl&ots=WycUFCC2Jl&sig=n6iPXXa1akrY4xb-ZPzFq74kfyc&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6587OuIvXAhXLaFAKHb48CG8Q6AEIZzAM#v=on epage&q=spitfire%20manual%20hydraulics&f=false

Paul D

[Bradburger]

Hey Paul (bradburger) are you sure you mean right side? I see the oxy bottle there but not a hydraulic reservoir. Do you or anyone have a clear pic please? For some reason, I can't find one for this type of Spit. The gear control changed on the Mk1A. Also, are people going to be happy with 30 pumps to get the gear down? :engel016:


Here you go Baz.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/pmcNqrvSDpIlsslg1

https://photos.app.goo.gl/2LfyaV9bKMOUyUbn1


From a selection of pictures I took at Duxford in July 2016: -

https://photos.app.goo.gl/u2d3LvHE0ij3q2Ym1

And here's a link to a discussion on the subject: -

https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?133624-Spitfire-MkI-unknown-device

Some of the Pictures are no longer showing, but there are some good ones lower down the thread.

Cheers

Paul

[bazzar]

Well thanks very much for clearing that up Paul. It would seem I have the later Mk1A voltage regulator where the hydro reservoir is on the early "pump-handle" Spitfire. So, the VR must go lower down behind the seat. All is now revealed and will be corrected along with the elevator. Thanks again.:engel016:

[bazzar]

The Mk1A is now completed.http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=55582&stc=1http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=55583&stc=1http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=55584&stc=1http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=55585&stc=1

[bazzar]

couple more WIPs.http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=55586&stc=1http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=55587&stc=1http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=55588&stc=1

[bazzar]

Revised canopy etc on the Mk1http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=55590&stc=1http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=55591&stc=1http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=55589&stc=1

[blanston12]

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=55085&d=1508893227

Never did understand the half white half black paint scheme. I remember talking to someone at an air museum where they had as spit painted like that and the docent said it was so they could use it in both night and day, but to me it always seemed like the worst of both worlds.

[bazzar]

The Day/Night scheme as it was called, didn't stop at the airframe either, the oleo legs and wheels were also painted black/white. By late 1940 everything was an even "sky" colour. By mid-war they also dropped the "A" and "B" schemes for odd and even code numbers. BTW thankyou for a really engaging RTW trip, great fun to read.:engel016:

[Bomber_12th]

The half black/half white lower surfaces was simply an early "IFF" friendly-foe identifier so that trigger-happy Allied gunners on the ground wouldn't shoot down Hurricanes and Spitfires thinking them to be enemy 109's (same concept as the ID bands and invasion stripes used later in the war) - as long as they saw the distinctive black/white lower surfaces, they'd know they were friendlies. As noted, the practice of painting the aircraft this way didn't last very long into WWII.

[Alan_A]

I'd understood the "day/night" scheme to be a recognition device, not camouflage.

Discussion of it in this post (https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/raf-black-and-white-undersides-why.22071/#post-600092) on WW2Aircraft.net.

EDIT: John beat me to it... or it was a photo finish...:cool:

According to the linked post, there was a move to reintroduce it in late '40/early '41. Apparently the RAF pilots thought it was useful for air-to-air recognition.

[Bomber_12th]

Such a great looking aircraft, and among the pinnacle of warbird restorations for the extreme depth and uncompromising level of accuracy - every detail of the aircraft is exactly as it was originally at the time it was forced to ditch on the beach near Calais during the Battle of France (down to the serial number on one of the prop blades, and all of the little white lines applied by the fasteners on all of the cowling panels, as well as the wing and fuselage access panels, allowing for quick assurance of proper fastening/correct angles of the fasteners). One of only two Mk.1 Spitfires flying with the original DH bracket propeller, early Merlin engine and manual landing gear pump system.

Photos by David Witworth.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8754/16972439650_44dfaf8cea_h.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2925/14439020855_c0bd810f85_h.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3934/33843521192_aad5aa9242_h.jpg

More:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dwhitworth/5982176414/sizes/o/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dwhitworth/6106638793/sizes/o/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dwhitworth/6112726137/sizes/o/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dwhitworth/5981619621/sizes/o/

Album:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dwhitworth/albums/72157627164130139

[Pips]

Stunning! :) Beautiful. :) Superlative. :) Honestly words don't do it justice. :encouragement:

[hairyspin]

Honestly Baz, you have no consideration for a chap’s wallet. What a friendly looking place to hang one’s flying helmet! The less bulging canopy on the Mk.I looks just right to me.

[dhasdell]

That is looking wonderful. Thank you for all the work.

As for "are people going to be happy with 30 pumps to get the gear down?" it takes nearer 40 key presses to get the wheels up or down on the IL-2 F3F!

[bazzar]

Thanks David. The other side-effect to "Spitfire knuckle" was "Spitfire Wobble" set up by novice Spitfire pilots having had to switch hands and controlling the stick with their left, developing a sympathetic motion to the right, pump hand. It's not easy, even on a computer. I swap the mouse hand for pump-clicking and hold the aeroplane steady with my left. That's the theory anyway!:engel016:

[MDIvey]

Looks fantastic Barry. Any chance of including some of the different mirror types that where added as hide able objects?

Matt

[bazzar]

We'd look at that Matt. It is always difficult to achieve a good balance between what is desirable and what is practical. The flap indicator is a classic example. I still can't work out why the early cockpits had the hole in the panel for it and the warning placard just below and even the mounting bolt holes for it but did not fit it yet the Mk1A had it fitted. The gauge must have existed in the earlier days so why not fit it? Some Mk1As retained the pump gear lever too. I suppose quite a few airframes were modified and altered in the field with what was available.

[alain0568]

really very very beautiful!:applause::applause::applause:



Alain
-

[blanston12]

The Day/Night scheme as it was called, didn't stop at the airframe either, the oleo legs and wheels were also painted black/white. By late 1940 everything was an even "sky" colour. By mid-war they also dropped the "A" and "B" schemes for odd and even code numbers. BTW thankyou for a really engaging RTW trip, great fun to read.:engel016:

Thanks Bazz, I am glad you enjoyed it and hope the screenshots I did of your AC did them justice.


The half black/half white lower surfaces was simply an early "IFF" friendly-foe identifier so that trigger-happy Allied gunners on the ground wouldn't shoot down Hurricanes and Spitfires thinking them to be enemy 109's (same concept as the ID bands and invasion stripes used later in the war) - as long as they saw the distinctive black/white lower surfaces, they'd know they were friendlies. As noted, the practice of painting the aircraft this way didn't last very long into WWII.

I had not heard the story that it was an attempt at IFF, makes more sense that what the old gentleman at the museum told me (he looked like had first hand knowledge so I believed him). Either way since it was phased out so quickly it must not have worked that well.

[Bradburger]

Looks fantastic Barry. Any chance of including some of the different mirror types that where added as hide able objects?

Matt

That wouldn't be a bad idea!

For the early MK.I, you could have the choice of the 'MG' type of mirror fitted by individual pilots and as seen on N3200, or the choice of no mirror, as per P9374.

For the later MK.I you could have the option of what became the standard mirror fitted to late MK.Is, MK.IIs, and MK.Vs.

As for the flap gauge, the consensus seems to be that it by the time of Dunkirk, it would have been removed, and as you already have the wing indicators to show their position, along with the fact that you get a fairly strong nose down change of trim when they are lowered, there was no need for it!

Cheers

Paul

[SkippyBing]

Either way since it was phased out so quickly it must not have worked that well.

I think it worked okay for its intended purpose, ground observers being able to tell friend from foe, the problem was it made them far more visible to the enemy. Essentially they'd chosen the only colour scheme that would contrast with anything!

[bazzar]

That wouldn't be a bad idea!

For the early MK.I, you could have the choice of the 'MG' type of mirror fitted by individual pilots and as seen on N3200, or the choice of no mirror, as per P9374.

For the later MK.I you could have the option of what became the standard mirror fitted to late MK.Is, MK.IIs, and MK.Vs.

As for the flap gauge, the consensus seems to be that it by the time of Dunkirk, it would have been removed, and as you already have the wing indicators to show their position, along with the fact that you get a fairly strong nose down change of trim when they are lowered, there was no need for it!

Cheers

Paul

The confusing part is that it was installed again in the Mk1A.:engel016:

[Bradburger]

The confusing part is that it was installed again in the Mk1A.:engel016:

Bazzar,

Do you have any photographic evidence of this that you came across during your research?

Whilst the hole for the gauge would possibly still be there, I haven't seen any pictures of late MK.Is with the flap indicator installed.

Looking at the Spitfire modification (mod) list, I note the following: -


Mod 215 "Delete flap position indicator" 20-3-40

Whilst there is always a chance that some early aircraft that were upgraded to the latest mod state retained it for one reason or another, I very much doubt that later MK.Is (built in mid to late 1940), would have had one fitted (re: the mod date), although the hole in the instrument panel would have still been present.

Cheers

Paul

[bazzar]

The indicator is shown in the manual dated May 1940. I simply just don't know. There are not enough pics available of a genuine Mk1A cockpit. I therefore am going to assume that it was ONLY fitted to the twin wooden blade propped Spitfire 1s and will remove it from the M1A cockpit.

Also, I always thought that the gunbuttons were finished in brass and aluminium. The restored P9374 has it painted red. Is this really authentic?:engel016:

[DennyA]

Baz, that's beautiful! And I didn't realize you guys had built a Zero. Is there a list somewhere of all of the planes AH has built for various publishers? I know your planes are going to be top-quality.

[bazzar]

Thanks mate, much appreciated. Drop me a line at bazzar@aeroplaneheaven.com and I'll sort something out for you. We've produced close to 60 titles.:engel016:

[IanP]

I keep intending to put a thread up here that's just pics of the Zero because so few people seem to realise it's available! I got it in the Pacific Combat Pilot twin-pack when JF were selling it off for some reason. It's not one I fly much, simply because the Far East isn't a theatre I tend to visit much in the sim, but

Going back to the Day/Night conversation, it's one of those "Marmite" things, people seem to have either hated it or loved it. It was very useful for recognition, but by most accounts it was also a nice easy identifier for enemy eyes as well, making RAF aircraft stand out like sore thumbs and thus easy to spot and attack. That was why it went - initially on a local basis, where some units just painted over it, then later by official instruction.

Everyone seems to tell a different story about it, though, as this thread shows very well! :)

Cheers,

Ian P.

[dhasdell]

Slightly OT, but both the Wildcat and the Zero are very nice indeed and well worth getting.

[Bradburger]

The indicator is shown in the manual dated May 1940. I simply just don't know.

Bazzar,

The copy of the Pilots Notes ('Handling & Flying Notes') that I have is also dated 1940, and is no doubt probably from the same source, which is part of A.P. 1565 A, the maintenance manual for the MK.I, dated June 1940, with sections also dated July & August 1940.

It's possible that picture (the port side) from the 'Flight Controls & Equipment' section was taken from an earlier Spitfire with the flap gauge fitted.

(According to the late Edgar Brooks, there was an amendment for the first edition of the Pilots Notes dated April 1940, which includes an instruction to include all the details of the new undercarriage retraction system, so it's possible that picture of the starboard cockpit was of a machine that was fitted with the automatic lever).

As for the red painted firing button, I firmly believe that to be accurate for that period.

And just to note, both cockpits of P9374 & N3200 have been finished as authentically possible using all the knowledge and references available for a Spitfire of that period and modification state.

Cheers

Paul

[bazzar]

Hi Paul,

I don't share your view on the gun button. I am pretty sure, standard issue was brass/alloy. It could be that the original aircraft's button was painted red for some reason but how one would prove that given the time in the wet sand etc. , I don't know.

I believe the picture in the pilot notes is a genuine early Mk1. Probably the wooden airscrew flat top version. I think the notes make mention of the indicator not being fitted to later aircraft. So somewhere between the change in props they took it out.:engel016:

[Bradburger]

Bazzar,

I saw a picture somewhere (probably on the Key historic forum) of a Spitfire spade grip fitted to a MK.I which had come into someone's possession .

You could clearly see the worn red paint on the firing button.

And restored Spitfire I X4650 (built in October 1940) has a very rare and early Spitfire MK.I spade grip (pre 1939 and still with a 'Dunlop Applied Patent' marked on it), and again, it has faded red paint on the brass!

So all the evidence shows during this period, they were indeed painted red.

Going back to the flap indicator, maybe you could make it togglable, so it could be 'fitted' to the VC if desired!

As a side note, both P9374 & N3200 have a flying limitations placard (required by the CAA) fitted behind the hole for the flap gauge on the back of the firewall, so as to not spoil the authenticity of the cockpit!

Cheers

Paul

[bazzar]

I'm still not convinced Paul, I'm pretty sure that the brass ferrules were stamped with "SAFE"and "FIRE" which were then filled with enamel green or black for safe and red for fire. That's the way I have always seen them.:engel016: