Convair Delta Wing Test

[Milton Shupe]

Someone besides Convair, who got the contract on this one, had to do it I guess. The XF-92A.

000Rick00 and I are working on this one. Never did a jet before so this is interesting but the design is simple so progress is fast.

The XF-92A should look great in the sim, and of course be faster than radial twins I typically do. :-)

[Mach3DS]

Well I guess the cat is out of the bag! A lot of hard work by Milton over this last week. Really nice looking piece of job!

Elected to do the J-33-A-29 powered version. Thought afterburner might be worth it!

[MrZippy]

Ah, the forerunner of the F-106 Delta Dart, and B-58 Hustler (Vindicator, for the movie buffs). Looks like something to fly very fast and land like a Wobblin' Gobblin:applause:

[Josh Patterson]

One plane closer to having a full complement of Convair deltas! Just need an XFY-1 Pogo! (But I would't complain about a nicer Sea Dart than the one that's out!) Can't wait to see the view out of that heavily framed canopy!

[Bjoern]

Making the flight dynamics is going to be interesting.

[Milton Shupe]

Making the flight dynamics is going to be interesting.

LOL Yes, we already have a sense of that. Although I'll get a basic set done for testing the model, I'll leave the real fun to someone else. :-)

[Sundog]

The main thing with deltas is limited control power since they can't be trimmed out at higher alpha (Unless you throw a tail on it; see the MiG-21 and the F-16), high induced drag at high alpha due to the vortex shed off of the apex (Think fore-runner of strakes) but structurally efficient (due to the low aspect ratio; big root chord with high taper ratio, small span), low drag at high speed due to the high L.E. sweep. Oh, and they look cool.

Another weird characteristic of deltas is you have to be steady on alpha and power during approach, because you can develop a sort of PIO due to being off-speed and off alpha. You see, if you get a little too slow or have too high of a decent rate most people want to pull back on the stick to create higher alpha and more lift. In a delta you will get a brief increase in lift, but then the higher drag of being at higher alpha kicks in and you also have less lift because you have more negative camber in the airfoil (elevons deflected further t.e. up) and the aircraft will sink even more. Conversely, if you are too nose up and push forward on the stick, you will reduce drag and it will want to "balloon/float" up initially due to lower drag and since the elevons now have less t.e. up and the camber develops more lift. The test pilot of the Arrow talked about that in one of my books on the Arrow program. If you aren't on alpha and at the correct power/speed for approach, just add power and go around and try again.

Also, I have a very good article on the history of the XF-92 which mentions where various parts of the plane were taken from, such as the landing gear, etc., if you guys are interested. Just PM me.

Thanks for modeling this, it's another plane I can cross of of my FS bucket list. :)

[Mach3DS]

There's some reports from Chuck Yeager that he was able to fly in stable condition 67mph at 30 degrees AoA. I've read in some articles that he landed at this speed which is completely false. He would have struck the exhaust pipe on the runway first. But, she was not liked by many pilots. However should be noted that Chuck Yeager loved the XF-92. At least from what I've read. He was reported as saying after the first flight that if they put the engine performance of the sabre into the handling of this jet he could shoot down anything.

He was also reported to have told the next set of pilots to fly her that in order to takeoff you simply kept her straight ahead and then when ready fort lift off breathe on the control stick and she'll lift off! It was too sensitive with short moment arm and 3000 PSI hydraulic control system boost pumps. Ironically those were installed after the cinvair pilots initially complained about mushy controls if I remember right. Maybe I've got that backward though! Lol.

[Milton Shupe]

The main thing with deltas is limited control power since they can't be trimmed out at higher alpha (Unless you throw a tail on it; see the MiG-21 and the F-16), high induced drag at high alpha due to the vortex shed off of the apex (Think fore-runner of strakes) but structurally efficient (due to the low aspect ratio; big root chord with high taper ratio, small span), low drag at high speed due to the high L.E. sweep. Oh, and they look cool.

Another weird characteristic of deltas is you have to be steady on alpha and power during approach, because you can develop a sort of PIO due to being off-speed and off alpha. You see, if you get a little too slow or have too high of a decent rate most people want to pull back on the stick to create higher alpha and more lift. In a delta you will get a brief increase in lift, but then the higher drag of being at higher alpha kicks in and you also have less lift because you have more negative camber in the airfoil (elevons deflected further t.e. up) and the aircraft will sink even more. Conversely, if you are too nose up and push forward on the stick, you will reduce drag and it will want to "balloon/float" up initially due to lower drag and since the elevons now have less t.e. up and the camber develops more lift. The test pilot of the Arrow talked about that in one of my books on the Arrow program. If you aren't on alpha and at the correct power/speed for approach, just add power and go around and try again.

Also, I have a very good article on the history of the XF-92 which mentions where various parts of the plane were taken from, such as the landing gear, etc., if you guys are interested. Just PM me.

Thanks for modeling this, it's another plane I can cross of of my FS bucket list. :)

Very interesting Sir. That's why the FM is out of my hands. ;-)

We do have limited data and specs on this one so anything you share will be greatly appreciated.

[Dimus]

Good to see you progressing with this Rick, and glad to see Milton in it too.

[Mach3DS]

Good to see you progressing with this Rick, and glad to see Milton in it too.


Ha! Thanks Dimus. But it's the other way around! Milton is progressing with this and I'm in it...LOL. Milton is the man on this!

[Mach3DS]

Here's what it was like without CFD....I created this animated gif using the some figures from one of the reports I have.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B43c_mD9H1xXalhmZVdwVDVkdktiUE9fSmcxY1ZPNFAtTTBr/view?usp=sharing


(https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B43c_mD9H1xXalhmZVdwVDVkdktiUE9fSmcxY1ZPNFAtTTBr/view?usp=sharing)

[Mach3DS]

Bjoern, would love to have your expertise on this project with an idea I have....kind of a simpler version of your MIT gauge...if your interested let me know. it would be all you, since I'm a zero time coder. No worries if not.

[Bjoern]

Bjoern, would love to have your expertise on this project with an idea I have....kind of a simpler version of your MIT gauge...if your interested let me know. it would be all you, since I'm a zero time coder. No worries if not.

Honored you're thinking of me, but I'll have to decline since I don't even have time to get even my primary stuff done.

[Mach3DS]

Honored you're thinking of me, but I'll have to decline since I don't even have time to get even my primary stuff done.

Oh No! Ok! No worries man, I totally understand. Thanks for the quick reply.

[Mach3DS]

Sundog, that article was great. Dispelled some rumors regarding it's handling and performance and who flew it, and when. Also shed light on the 3 phases of testing. Interesting side note, CONVAIR actually designed and built an inlet air diffuser spike, they just never got to flight test it before Scott Crossfield ground looped the aircraft and ended the program. Amazing! Imagine if they had been able to gather that data.

[warchild]

Thank you both for this. It will make a wonderful, and much needed addition to FSX and P3D. I'm looking forward to flying it.
I also wish someone would make the Convair Kingfish. It was the competitor to the YF-12 in the CIA's 1959 call for a replacement to the Lockheed U-2.
It was built, it competed, and it lost to the YF-12, but unlike the YF-23 which also lost to Lockheed, its story doesn't end there. Even before the actual competition, the Kingfish, became a classified project, which is to be expected considering the sensitive nature of the material. What doesn't make sense is, its still classified over fifty years later. What we do know is that Kingfish was the progeny of the fish: a small parasite plane capable of hyper-sonic speeds and a ninety thousand foot ceiling. It was Convair's first proposal in the competition, but was found too expensive to maintain so the Kingfish was created. Fish, also used a lot of ceramics to reduce its radar cross section. It was beyond cutting edge. However, it relied on a super hustler to get it up to a speed where the engines would ignite. The Kingfish used the same engines as the YF-12, and lost fair and square to Lockheed as it was slower and couldn't fly as high. Maybe it was just forgotten by history like the Carmel Ca. Law prohibiting the sale of Ice Cream which Clint Eastwood repealed, or maybe there was something else, but either way, the Kingfish remains an enigma and one of the most ground breaking and innovative aircraft ever to be designed..

[Mach3DS]

Enjoy!

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/article.html?item_id=67


http://www.codeonemagazine.com/article.html?item_id=74


http://www.codeonemagazine.com/article.html?item_id=92


http://www.codeonemagazine.com/images/media/001_ASchweizer_FISHpntng_web_1267828237_3089.jpg
(http://www.codeonemagazine.com/article.html?item_id=92)

[warchild]

So it was the fish that carried over into the hyper-sonic era and not kingfish. Interesting. Well, thats perhaps a conversation for another thread. Kingfish is dead, long live the fish. It's also interesting to see how Kingfish was based on the delta dagger ( but ended up being a tiny bit more like the F-117 ). I dont know what all that misdirection and misinformation was at the end of part four there, but it stinks to high heaven of American propoganda.. Time will maybe tell.. Thank you Rick :) ..

[Mach3DS]

Contours....nice lines.


http://www.codeonemagazine.com/images/media/2012_beyond_11W_Config_SA_2S5_1267828237_3614.jpg

[warchild]

That, would also be amazing to fly..

Ya Knooowwwww. If someone were ever to find the time in their schedules to build the model, I bet i still have at least one more FDE in me I could do..

[Sundog]

So it was the fish that carried over into the hyper-sonic era and not kingfish. Interesting. Well, thats perhaps a conversation for another thread. Kingfish is dead, long live the fish. It's also interesting to see how Kingfish was based on the delta dagger ( but ended up being a tiny bit more like the F-117 ). I dont know what all that misdirection and misinformation was at the end of part four there, but it stinks to high heaven of American propoganda.. Time will maybe tell.. Thank you Rick :) ..

The Fish predated the Kingfish. There were many different design studies of the Fish. It was designed to be launched from the belly of a B-58. Some of them had launch boosters. Then when Oxcart came along, they scaled it up so it didn't need to be launched from another aircraft and reworked it to meet the requirements and it became the Kingfish.

In fact, the Kingfish beat the A-12 in the first review, because of it's stealth. The CIA demanded stealth, but Kelly Johnson didn't want to use any stealth because he thought very high speed was enough of a refuge. The Skunk Works original submission (A-11?) was designed for Mach 4. But when Kelly heard they were losing to Convair, he relented and added stealth and the A-12 was born. There are reports that they were evenly matched, but the A-12 had slightly better range. But I think the Kingfish was designed for Mach 3, whereas the A-12 was based off of a Mach 4 design and in testing the A-12 hit around M=3.72 and the SR-71 about M=3.68. But they were limited operationally to a max of M=3.5. Anything over that destroyed the powerplants, but IIRC, during the first mission over Hanoi they were allowed to push it just past M=3.5 due to our concern over all of the SAM sites circling the city.

[PRB]

The main thing with deltas is limited control power since they can't be trimmed out at higher alpha (Unless you throw a tail on it; see the MiG-21 and the F-16), high induced drag at high alpha due to the vortex shed off of the apex (Think fore-runner of strakes) but structurally efficient (due to the low aspect ratio; big root chord with high taper ratio, small span), low drag at high speed due to the high L.E. sweep. Oh, and they look cool.

Another weird characteristic of deltas is you have to be steady on alpha and power during approach, because you can develop a sort of PIO due to being off-speed and off alpha. You see, if you get a little too slow or have too high of a decent rate most people want to pull back on the stick to create higher alpha and more lift. In a delta you will get a brief increase in lift, but then the higher drag of being at higher alpha kicks in and you also have less lift because you have more negative camber in the airfoil (elevons deflected further t.e. up) and the aircraft will sink even more. Conversely, if you are too nose up and push forward on the stick, you will reduce drag and it will want to "balloon/float" up initially due to lower drag and since the elevons now have less t.e. up and the camber develops more lift. The test pilot of the Arrow talked about that in one of my books on the Arrow program. If you aren't on alpha and at the correct power/speed for approach, just add power and go around and try again.

Also, I have a very good article on the history of the XF-92 which mentions where various parts of the plane were taken from, such as the landing gear, etc., if you guys are interested. Just PM me.

Thanks for modeling this, it's another plane I can cross of of my FS bucket list. :)

Very interesting Sundog. But I have a question. When I got to fly the C-17 simulator, the instructor made a "big deal" out of the fact that the C-17 lands "on the back side", meaning on the back side of the power curve, a high AOA (low speed) region where forward and aft stick movement affects speed (AOA) and power controls glide slope (altitude). It's the same place on the power curve where navy jets approach the carrier, which is why they fly approaches the same way. Since all these delta-wing jets land at high AOA, might they "simply" be operating "behind" the power curve on approach, like C-17s and F/A-18s? I do wish FSX (etc.) modeled this interesting behavior better!

[Mach3DS]

The back side of the power curve is normal. It's just a different philosophy to flying. Where power controls altitude and pitch controls airspeed. You're operating in slow flight regime.

[Bjoern]

Since all these delta-wing jets land at high AOA, might they "simply" be operating "behind" the power curve on approach, like C-17s and F/A-18s? I do wish FSX (etc.) modeled this interesting behavior better!

Try Restauravia's Mirage III series. Since pilots of the real thing were involved in development, it handles pretty damn convincingly using only what's offered by FSXA.

[Sundog]

Very interesting Sundog. But I have a question. When I got to fly the C-17 simulator, the instructor made a "big deal" out of the fact that the C-17 lands "on the back side", meaning on the back side of the power curve, a high AOA (low speed) region where forward and aft stick movement affects speed (AOA) and power controls glide slope (altitude). It's the same place on the power curve where navy jets approach the carrier, which is why they fly approaches the same way. Since all these delta-wing jets land at high AOA, might they "simply" be operating "behind" the power curve on approach, like C-17s and F/A-18s? I do wish FSX (etc.) modeled this interesting behavior better!

As Rick said, the backside of the power curve is normal for all aircraft. It''s basically a plot of drag and available power. It's usually noticeable on landing because you're in a high drag low power configuration. If you remember that old video of the F-100 where the pilot comes in too slow and he tries to correct by pulling the nose up and only gets slower then finally stalls and rolls into the ground. Basically it's where the drag generated is higher than the power available. Modern aircraft usually have enough excess power that they can add smash and fly out of it. The F-100 didn't have that much power available at low speeds. The pilot got slow and tried to compensate with more alpha, which lead to even more drag, and he really didn't have any way out since they didn't have zero-zero ejection seats in those days.

Here's a graph (https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-158bb74ce5507b401662eccc68bc315f) of it. Power available is what your powerplant produces and power required is the total drag curve. When you get to the left side where the power required (drag) is higher than the power available, that's the backside of the power curve. Most aircraft will stall before they get into this region of the envelope.

What I'm talking about with regard to the delta is basically how the flight controls which control pitch also effect the camber of the wing. With a tailed aircraft, you push the stick forward, the tail lowers the nose (alpha), the wing is at lower alpha and if density and speed (dynamic pressure) remain constant, you generate less lift. With a delta, you push forward on the stick, which will push the nose down, and lower alpha, which lowers lift, but it will also increase lift because you've just increased the camber of the airfoil. The exact opposite happens for pitching up.

At small increments of alpha, the higher dynamic pressure means you don't have to deflect the flight controls much, so the camber change is most likely negligible, but based on what I've read of most deltas, it's really noticeable at low speeds and high alpha, such as on approach to landing.

[Mach3DS]

That poor soul in the F100 video had more than just low power to contend with. They couldn't control roll coupling in Swept wing aircraft very well at that time and I think he suffered from that as well. Inexperience with heavy slow Jets can equal disaster at times.

[Milton Shupe]

Interesting topic and discussion guys. Just curious who has the knowledge and skills to do the flight model :-)

Update: invested the last three days getting the nose and main gear started and doors and bays cut in.
Now that the basics are done, I can clone to the right side, add details and animate.
I'll be another day on main gear and associated fuse and wing parts.

[Sundog]

Interesting topic and discussion guys. Just curious who has the knowledge and skills to do the flight model :-)


I never looked at how they did the Concorde FM, but I'm betting if anyone has experience with how to implement a good delta FM, it's Glowing Heat (maybe he'll offer some advice). I've made some FM's before and for jets, I find the most difficult part is finding a good engine deck to reference. I only have a couple of them. I don't recall the FDE having a delta option and I've been thinking about how you make it work. Do you make the wing and elevator "overlap" and artificially reduce the parasite drag based on the actual surface area as opposed to the doubled control surface area the sim would see? Do you also model them as flaps, to effect the wing lift as they are deflected as well?

I'll be more than happy to help out where I can, but between guitar lessons and practice, working around the house (too many projects), and writing a book with a lot of graphic art I have to complete, my calendar is full. Also, once a month I have to make the news letter for the model hobby club I'm in (Will-Cook IPMS). I mean, it's so bad, the only thing I assemble in the hobby club right now is the news letter. Here I thought I would finish my 1/72 Sukhoi PAK-FA/T-50/Su-57 before the end of the year. ;) That's all after my day job. So I can help, it just won't be quick.

The preview shots look great so far. Of course, I'm never surprised by that from you.

[heywooood]

check out this one - by Rayl @ http://www.virtualaerodrome.com/image_detail.html?p_aircraft_id=633&p_user_id=1042&p_image_id=33691


(http://www.virtualaerodrome.com/image_detail.html?p_aircraft_id=633&p_user_id=1042&p_image_id=33691)

[heywooood]

this is a scratchbuilt balsa display model - rayl is an active contributor at the VA website - he may have some interesting plans and photographs to share. I dunno about FM's though...but certainly drawings and pictures etc..

[Milton Shupe]

I never looked at how they did the Concorde FM, but I'm betting if anyone has experience with how to implement a good delta FM, it's Glowing Heat (maybe he'll offer some advice). I've made some FM's before and for jets, I find the most difficult part is finding a good engine deck to reference. I only have a couple of them. I don't recall the FDE having a delta option and I've been thinking about how you make it work. Do you make the wing and elevator "overlap" and artificially reduce the parasite drag based on the actual surface area as opposed to the doubled control surface area the sim would see? Do you also model them as flaps, to effect the wing lift as they are deflected as well?

I'll be more than happy to help out where I can, but between guitar lessons and practice, working around the house (too many projects), and writing a book with a lot of graphic art I have to complete, my calendar is full. Also, once a month I have to make the news letter for the model hobby club I'm in (Will-Cook IPMS). I mean, it's so bad, the only thing I assemble in the hobby club right now is the news letter. Here I thought I would finish my 1/72 Sukhoi PAK-FA/T-50/Su-57 before the end of the year. ;) That's all after my day job. So I can help, it just won't be quick.

The preview shots look great so far. Of course, I'm never surprised by that from you.

Sundog,

I wasn't really asking; just commenting in jest.

The plan right now is I'll do a basic FM for testing.
Then I'll turn it over to Rick to deal with :-)

I am doing this project for Rick and he will take it where he wishes once I am done modeling.

Thanks
Milton

[Sundog]

Sundog,

I wasn't really asking; just commenting in jest.

The plan right now is I'll do a basic FM for testing.
Then I'll turn it over to Rick to deal with :-)

I am doing this project for Rick and he will take it where he wishes once I am done modeling.

Thanks
Milton

:: phew::: That was really going to work on my time management skills! ;)

[Dimus]

Brent Stolle did a fantastic FDE for the MTM Mirage 2000C. Maybe if you intrigue him enough?

[Milton Shupe]

:: phew::: That was really going to work on my time management skills! ;)

LOL Sir; I appreciate that you are always willing to help.


Brent Stolle did a fantastic FDE for the MTM Mirage 2000C. Maybe if you intrigue him enough?

Good point Dimus; he would be good. Bernt usually contacts me when he has an interest. Not sure if Rick has anyone in mind or not but I'll leave it to him to sort out.

[Milton Shupe]

this is a scratchbuilt balsa display model - rayl is an active contributor at the VA website - he may have some interesting plans and photographs to share. I dunno about FM's though...but certainly drawings and pictures etc..


Very well done model; looks great.

I will not be needing drawings or ref pics unless there is something available for the cockpit. Everything is done. Thanks

[Mach3DS]

My plan was to enlist my good friend and coworker who is an aerodynamics engineer for Boeing Defense on the super hornet to help me tune the FDE to something fairly close.....that's the plan anyway! Milton had been humoring my idea requests. So I have some ideas for what I would like to see be in the final released package, but I'm keeping those under wraps right now until I can figure out how to do it or if it can be done. I'm reaching out to my developer friend network (not for the work) to answer my questions of if it can be done and how it could be done.

[Bjoern]

I never looked at how they did the Concorde FM, but I'm betting if anyone has experience with how to implement a good delta FM, it's Glowing Heat (maybe he'll offer some advice). I've made some FM's before and for jets, I find the most difficult part is finding a good engine deck to reference. I only have a couple of them. I don't recall the FDE having a delta option and I've been thinking about how you make it work. Do you make the wing and elevator "overlap" and artificially reduce the parasite drag based on the actual surface area as opposed to the doubled control surface area the sim would see? Do you also model them as flaps, to effect the wing lift as they are deflected as well?

Engine data may be a bit of a problem, but the J33 allows extrapolation from data for other aircraft (T-33, P-80, etc.).

No point in defining a delta planform in the FDE when you need to determine its aerodynamic characteristics by coefficients (C_L, C_d, etc.) in the .air file and aircraft.cfg anyway. Same for elevator influences in terms of pitch acceleration, moment and drag increase.
FSX flight dynamics reference (minus engine-related things): http://fsdeveloper.com/forum/resources/flight-dynamics-in-msfs-v1-0.169/

The worst thing about making FDEs is having to fill gaps (usually a lot and very wide) in source data with a lot of time-consuming trial and error.



Some charts containing aircraft characteristics are displayed in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HKQ87g4SsQ

[Milton Shupe]

Some wire frames to share here; I know some folks like to see such things.

[Mach3DS]

Thanks for those links Bjoern! The video is a good one I e watched many times since a few years back...

Milton those shots are impressive!

[YoYo]

Nice choice and part of interesting history!!!
P3Dv4 ready also ? :wavey: (pretty please)

https://media.defense.gov/2010/Jun/28/2000572058/-1/-1/0/050324-F-1234P-010.JPG

[odourboy]

Great photo Yoyo! :encouragement:

[Milton Shupe]

Nice choice and part of interesting history!!!
P3Dv4 ready also ? :wavey: (pretty please)



Best photo of my archives now.

P3Dv4 of course. :-)

Thanks

[Milton Shupe]

Just got the first cut of the flight model, and our First flight ... :wiggle:

[warchild]

wht arent there any "like" buttons on this page?? Looking fantastic Milton.. I love it already..

[Milton Shupe]

wht arent there any "like" buttons on this page?? Looking fantastic Milton.. I love it already..

Thank you Pam; I was surprised in went into the sim so easily on a first cut FM. No probs in taxi, takeoff or climbout, great stability, but underpowered at the moment.

I am missing N1 and N2 numbers for the J33-A-29 variant on this first cut but at least we have the basics in place for balance and stability.

Took her to FL250 no problem; handles well.

We are happy with this start.

Now, back to modeling to populate the cockpit with some basics, then onto the mapping for textures.

[Flyboy208]

Such a cool project ! Love the exotic X types. A good family friend was a USAF test pilot who knew Yeager well and had some great stories to tell. Mike :ernaehrung004:

[Mach3DS]

Milton if need be, we could also opt for the J33-A-16, which might have more information available. Which is the final engine variant with Afterburner that NACA had installed for all of Scott Crossfield's flight testing.

[napamule]

Josh,
Paul Clawson made one (FSDSv3, for FS2004) back in 2005. It flys well in FSX. I did not use Rob's VTOL Gauge - made my own FDEs, Turbo-Prop. Here is a video of it landing on Tokyo Skyscraper Helo Pad in FSX Accel. Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr5xjupE3MU . But you have to learn to fly it and most simmers don't have the time or patience to learn how to fly it. Flys like a helicopter so there is a learning curve. But it's 'airplane' not helicopter FDEs.
Chuck B
Napamule
Edit: Found the link to video of it flying in FS2004. Link: https://youtu.be/VP8EdVX6LdU

[gribouil]

Hi Milton and Team,
I can contact Jean-Pierre Bourgeois (BEEGEE as he is known on several FS forum) who worked on the Restauravia Mirage III and did marvels on her FDE if you want?
Cheers,

Stéph.

[warchild]

Engine data may be a bit of a problem, but the J33 allows extrapolation from data for other aircraft (T-33, P-80, etc.).

No point in defining a delta planform in the FDE when you need to determine its aerodynamic characteristics by coefficients (C_L, C_d, etc.) in the .air file and aircraft.cfg anyway. Same for elevator influences in terms of pitch acceleration, moment and drag increase.
FSX flight dynamics reference (minus engine-related things): http://fsdeveloper.com/forum/resources/flight-dynamics-in-msfs-v1-0.169/

The worst thing about making FDEs is having to fill gaps (usually a lot and very wide) in source data with a lot of time-consuming trial and error.



Some charts containing aircraft characteristics are displayed in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HKQ87g4SsQ

Yeahhh, FDE's are cascade after cascade of variables effecting other variables and changing them on the fly. We all WISH they could be set in stone, but that'll never happen. The laws of physics just wont allow it.

[nigel richards]

Some wire frames to share here; I know some folks like to see such things.

AWESOME!

Hugely appreciated, and duly downloaded/stored to where I cherrish such treasures. :-)

Thank YOU, My Friend - most heartening to see you testing exciting new waters.

[Bjoern]

Yeahhh, FDE's are cascade after cascade of variables effecting other variables and changing them on the fly. We all WISH they could be set in stone, but that'll never happen. The laws of physics just wont allow it.

I wish there was an external tool for deriving steady state data from an aircraft.cfg and .air file. AJPC and AirWizEd already do this, but only in relatively isolated areas of the FDE.
The worst and most time consuming thing about flight testing in FSX is always having to accelerate toward the test point after an aircraft reload because FSX doesn't save engine spool state.

[Josh Patterson]

Josh,
Paul Clawson made one (FSDSv3, for FS2004) back in 2005. It flys well in FSX. I did not use Rob's VTOL Gauge - made my own FDEs, Turbo-Prop. Here is a video of it landing on Tokyo Skyscraper Helo Pad in FSX Accel. Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr5xjupE3MU . But you have to learn to fly it and most simmers don't have the time or patience to learn how to fly it. Flys like a helicopter so there is a learning curve. But it's 'airplane' not helicopter FDEs.
Chuck B
Napamule
Edit: Found the link to video of it flying in FS2004. Link: https://youtu.be/VP8EdVX6LdU
That was a pretty tight landing spot! Does it have a VC? I'd like to know just how hard of a time Skeets had backing one of these down!

[Milton Shupe]

AWESOME!

Hugely appreciated, and duly downloaded/stored to where I cherrish such treasures. :-)

Thank YOU, My Friend - most heartening to see you testing exciting new waters.


LOL Nigel; I knew you would like them. :-) Thanks

Finished the exterior animations and now ready to map for textures. Yeaaaa! :-)

[Milton Shupe]

Hi Stéph,

I must leave that decision to Rick as I believe he has someone to do it already.

Thanks for your offer; will keep it in mind.

[Sundog]

Woohoo, up to the texture stage. I'm looking forward to it being painted as the "MiG-23" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_XF-92#/media/File:XF-92A_MIG-23.jpg) (fictional) from the movie Jet Pilot.

[Mach3DS]

Milton's hard work. Mapping in work.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4507/37905532326_9d0a5ca44f_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4500/26183544509_3766967ae4_o.jpg

[Milton Shupe]

Nice shots Rick. Now, if we can find a pilot brave enough to pilot her. :-)

Anyone have a late 40's - early 50's pilot figure (at least head and helmet with oxy mask) to donate? Able to convert to Gmax is necessary.

Here's a pic of what we are looking for.

[gribouil]

Hi Milton,
no problem at all!!!
If you ever need his knowledge, Jean-Pierre Bourgeois is really very good at creating flight dynamics.
Anyway, I'll be looking forward to the development of this beauty!
Cheers,

Stéph.

[Mach3DS]

Steph! Thank you for the offer. I may take you up on it. More to come.

[Milton Shupe]

Some guy named Yeagor contacted me about being a test pilot but not sure he has the credentials. I referred him to Rick. :-)

Borrowing parts to build a VC.

[Mach3DS]

Some guy named Yeagor contacted me about being a test pilot but not sure he has the credentials. I referred him to Rick. :-)

Borrowing parts to build a VC.

Just like thre real thing Milton. For those unaware the real one used parts from many different aircraft to reduce development and production time.

[Mach3DS]

Maybe John Terrell has an old discarded pilot model that won't be making it into future WBS products? LOL....I can dream!

[flaviossa]

Interesting video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q--q63CFyeU

[Milton Shupe]

She should be ready for the paint shop today :wiggle:

[Roger]

I'm begining to believe that Milton is in fact 3 people, maybe triplets, all called Milton and all superb aeroplane makers. If not how could one man be so prodigious? I do love a good conspiracy theory:engel016:

[Mach3DS]

The paint shop is ready for the removal, rinse, acid wash, rinse, masking, application, and curing! Paint mixed, and sprayers loaded!

[Milton Shupe]

The paint shop is ready for the removal, rinse, acid wash, rinse, masking, application, and curing! Paint mixed, and sprayers loaded!


On its way

[dvj]

On its way

Looking at the real life photos, I think this front gear piece faces the rear of the aircraft. -d
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=55234&stc=1

[Mach3DS]

On its way

Got it! Thanks Milton. The beauty of this one, is that Milton has been able to fit everything nicely and efficiently for exterior onto one texture sheet! That means way less work time for me, and quicker turn around. Since I'm only now dealing with 6 total texture creations. Diffuse, Diffuse Alpha, Specular, Specular Alpha, and Bumps. hopefully start work on this tonight in earnest. I'm setting of the PSD's right now so that I can create a good paint kit when released. Hoepfully we can get some good what if schemes when ready!

[Milton Shupe]

Looking at the real life photos, I think this front gear piece faces the rear of the aircraft. -d
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=55234&stc=1

LOL Good catch there dvj!

It's funny. In FS9, the c_wheel is animated 100-200 and at animation Keyframe 100, it would display as in the sim facing correctly.
In FSX, that part is animated from 0-200 and at Keyframe 100, it displays backwards so I did not catch that I had it backwards since it showed 180 degrees around. :-)

Thanks :-)

EDIT: Corrected - LOL

[Mach3DS]

Mapping is nearly done. Milton is a pro and inventive on the fly. I hope to do right by him and his work. This is a project I have long wanted to see happen. I'm very grateful Milton was willing to get involved in such a big way. Thanks Milton!

BTW I think we still are in need of a vintage pilot figure out at least helmet, oxy mask and goggles.

[Milton Shupe]

Mapping is nearly done. Milton is a pro and inventive on the fly. I hope to do right by him and his work. This is a project I have long wanted to see happen. I'm very grateful Milton was willing to get involved in such a big way. Thanks Milton!

Rick, you did a lot of research and have been incredibly helpful to make my part easy. I have worked with some great people over the years and I now put you in that category.

Thank you

[Mach3DS]

Materials test. Working very well. Moving ahead with painting.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4467/38004250491_0cae3f658e_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4469/37973830432_95c956bcae_o.jpg

[JensOle]

Interesting project! I believe john T has such a helmet and pilot figure on his korean war mustangs. Maybe it is possible to borrow it?

[Javis]

I'd be happy to put any of these three gentlemen daredevils in the cockpit:

http://sectionf8.com/f86files/f92m.jpg

cheers,
Jan

[Milton Shupe]

I'd be happy to put any of these three gentlemen daredevils in the cockpit:

http://sectionf8.com/f86files/f92m.jpg

cheers,
Jan

Now that would be awesome Jan. :wavey:

[Milton Shupe]

Materials test. Working very well. Moving ahead with painting.



The mesh is looking really good in those shots.

Took her up to FL500. Baby, it's cold out there. :snowman:

[Mach3DS]

Yes! Mesh is looking very smooth. Small diameter fuselage is lending well to the number of faces you used for a very good curve. I've got the base color done with each part separated by a layer mask. Nothing to show yet. But I'm ready to start the panel lines and rivets and access panels. Once that's done, the bare metal scheme will be very quick to follow as I've stream lined my work flow for bumps, specs and alpha channel creation with the XP-54 which I can now apply to future projects.

[Seahawk72s]

I'd be happy to put any of these three gentlemen daredevils in the cockpit:

http://sectionf8.com/f86files/f92m.jpg

cheers,
Jan

Great photo, thanks...:encouragement:
Worth taking a look at the career of Jack Ridley, a brilliant engineer and pilot...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ridley_(pilot)

[Javis]

Now that would be awesome Jan. :wavey:

Glad to be of some assistance, Milton. I have a new pilot figure for your- and Gordon's F-7F Tigercat as well :

http://sectionf8.com/f86files/f7-pilotwip2.jpg


I have a P-1A helmet and a A-13A O2 mask lying around in the workshop somewhere too, it's Max though so i have to convert to Gmax.

Can you send me the XF92 gmax source so i can fit him in ?

Great project, Milton ! Love these testplanes ! :encouragement:

Cheers,
Jan

[Javis]

Great photo, thanks...:encouragement:
Worth taking a look at the career of Jack Ridley, a brilliant engineer and pilot...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ridley_(pilot)

Thanks for the link Seahawk, a great and interesting read!

Very ironic and sad to read that it happend to be the gentle C-47 in which he found his final resting place, being only 41 years of age...

[Mach3DS]

Glad to be of some assistance, Milton. I have a new pilot figure for your- and Gordon's F-7F Tigercat as well :

[IMG]http://sectionf8.com/f86files/f7-pilotwip2.jpg[/IMG

I have a P-1A helmet and a A-13A O2 mask lying around in the workshop somewhere too, it's Max though so i have to convert to Gmax.

Can you send me the XF92 gmax source so i can fit him in ?

Great project, Milton ! Love these testplanes ! :encouragement:

Cheers,
Jan


That would be wonderful Jan! Thank you! Precisely what we were hoping for!

[Milton Shupe]

Hello Jan, thank you Sir once again.

The source link was sent to you by PM.

Kind Regards

[Javis]

That would be wonderful Jan! Thank you! Precisely what we were hoping for!

Glad to help out, Rick, thanks! :cool:

[Javis]

Hello Jan, thank you Sir once again.

The source link was sent to you by PM.

Kind Regards

Got it, thanks Milton ! :cool:

[Mach3DS]

Still very early....

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4476/37366551234_3b57fe5f43_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4491/37366551604_53ced0e399_o.jpg

[warchild]

Still very early....

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4476/37366551234_3b57fe5f43_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4491/37366551604_53ced0e399_o.jpg

very very nice

[Mach3DS]

UPDATE:

This is my first true "from scratch" project. I've never taken the paint from absolutely nothing. First time I've done the full load. Very reward but slow going with rivets and alignment of panel lines. I've not much time with 3 kids and all that that implies. But had some time tonight. I've got the rivets and panel lines finished on upper and lower wing surfaces and canopy. Now I just need to attack the fuselage and this sheet will be ready for the bump treatment.

I did the custom wing vapor texture effect tonight as well. Once it's working properly (I can see it in MCX, but not in sim! Go figure!??), we'll get some nice g loading induced wing vapor. Milton worked hard on getting this feature integrated. We also have wing fences as an option selectable through an on/off VC switch. Again, Milton working his tail off for these features.

[Sundog]

It's looking good guys! It's really looking like an airplane now.

[Milton Shupe]

Since I have no jets in my build inventory, I am in need of the typical jet engine gauges (single engine). Anyone aware of some period typical gauges for the late 40's/early 50's jets that we may use (with permissions) for this project.

We can modify as necessary but most important is period correct with permissions to use/modify.

[Bjoern]

Something from the FSX T-33 project or any other of Tim's jet birds?

Getting explicit permission is, of course, not really possible unless we'll be witnesses to a resurrection miracle. Yet, I think one can get away with giving him credit (in absentia).

[Mach3DS]

In addition to the standard stuff, We do need an Afterburner ignition gauge upon reaching a throttle %power setting, as this model has AB. Anyone able to help in that arena? Milton will need that as well.

[Mach3DS]

Took a break from riveting and created a wing vapor texture. Thanks to Century Series for helping us with the coding and how to achieve this result!

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4481/38105875181_730aa3a407_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4496/24253539128_2ac6f6890f_o.jpg

[Javis]

Since I have no jets in my build inventory, I am in need of the typical jet engine gauges (single engine). Anyone aware of some period typical gauges for the late 40's/early 50's jets that we may use (with permissions) for this project.

We can modify as necessary but most important is period correct with permissions to use/modify.

If these are to your liking you're good to go, Milton :

http://sectionf8.com/f86files/f86_gauges.jpg

110% sure that if he was still around Hansi would've been glad to donate his F-86 gauges for your XF-92 project, Milton. They are from quite a few years ago of course so no 3D alas. And our F-86 model was for FS9 but the gauges work fine in FSX. However they don't in P3Dv4.... I just checked... I don't have enough knowledge of gauges to know if they can be *made* to work in v4.... ( Bjoern ?.... )

Nice option here is that some gauges are double, click them and they'll turn into another gauge. F.i. the ILS gauge can change into the ADF gauge.

So, if you like i can send you the gauges or maybe you have our old Sabre puppy still lying around somewhere ? It's all Hansi's and my work, you're very welcome to it, naturally. In addition to the gauges you can of course use anything. I'd say put the whole VC in and remove what's not needed. :) In that case i'll send you our F-86 model source.

( afraid no AB gauge, Rick.... F-86 didn't have one.. )

Cheers,
Jan

http://sectionf8.com/f86files/f86gauges.jpg
http://sectionf8.com/f86files/f86gauges.jpg

[falcon409]

I thought about the gauges and of course most any gauge will work for FS9/FSX/P3D_V3, however once you get to P3D_V4 you lose any "gau" or "dll" based gauges due to the 64bit architecture ("cab./xml" gauges only).

[Mach3DS]

I'm currently using the xf-92 only in P3DV4. So far everything works as should. yes, any non-xml gauges would not work in v4.

[YoYo]

If these are to your liking you're good to go, Milton :

http://sectionf8.com/f86files/f86_gauges.jpg

http://sectionf8.com/f86files/f86gauges.jpg
http://sectionf8.com/f86files/f86gauges.jpg

+1 for this quality :very_drunk:.

[Mach3DS]

Gentlemen, understand that there are only 2 pictures of the cockpit that I'm aware of. Both are of the piece in the USAF museum, and both are terribly out of focus! They are useless for reference. As such, Milton and I discussed converting the XP72 VC for use in the XF-92A. This greatly reduces production time. It also is in line with the spirit of the actual production of the real thing. Where parts were borrowed from off the shelf inventory. Also, being a test aircraft, there were no externa lights, and navigation equipment was likely lmited to a single ADF. Though I'm up for something more modern in order to facilitate use with VORs for ease of sim use.

[Milton Shupe]

If these are to your liking you're good to go, Milton :



110% sure that if he was still around Hansi would've been glad to donate his F-86 gauges for your XF-92 project, Milton. They are from quite a few years ago of course so no 3D alas. And our F-86 model was for FS9 but the gauges work fine in FSX. However they don't in P3Dv4.... I just checked... I don't have enough knowledge of gauges to know if they can be *made* to work in v4.... ( Bjoern ?.... )

Nice option here is that some gauges are double, click them and they'll turn into another gauge. F.i. the ILS gauge can change into the ADF gauge.

So, if you like i can send you the gauges or maybe you have our old Sabre puppy still lying around somewhere ? It's all Hansi's and my work, you're very welcome to it, naturally. In addition to the gauges you can of course use anything. I'd say put the whole VC in and remove what's not needed. :) In that case i'll send you our F-86 model source.

( afraid no AB gauge, Rick.... F-86 didn't have one.. )

Cheers,
Jan



Thank you Jan; you are most gracious. Yes, Hansi and I have worked together before and he graciously provided some needed new xml gauges in past projects.

I do have the F-86 in all its glory and thank you and your team for all that effort.

I have merged and converted the VC out of the xp-72/xp-54 and converted things for jet use.

Since your post here, I have used 6 gauges from the F-86 cab file; thank you very much. :-)

I think aside from some texture changes we must make to "purify" the panel and cockpit for a "jet", we are almost there.

I really appreciate your spirit for the project.

[Bjoern]

In addition to the standard stuff, We do need an Afterburner ignition gauge upon reaching a throttle %power setting, as this model has AB. Anyone able to help in that arena? Milton will need that as well.

It's all in the aircraft.cfg.
afterburner_throttle_threshold=90 (or 95)




However they don't in P3Dv4.... I just checked... I don't have enough knowledge of gauges to know if they can be *made* to work in v4.... ( Bjoern ?.... )

XML gauges should work just fine. C++ based ones not at all.

[Milton Shupe]

It's all in the aircraft.cfg.
afterburner_throttle_threshold=90 (or 95)


XML gauges should work just fine. C++ based ones not at all.

I have the afterburner working okay; not a problem.

All the gauges are working fine in P3Dv4.

Focus now is on the AB effects.

[Bjoern]

Splendid news, Milton! :ernaehrung004:

[Mach3DS]

The J33-A-29 isn't your F-16 or F15 with burners just blasting out the back end. Much less power so mostly we should see the flame inside the pipe. But if anyone has effects experience I doubt it will be turned down!

[Milton Shupe]

The J33-A-29 isn't your F-16 or F15 with burners just blasting out the back end. Much less power so mostly we should see the flame inside the pipe. But if anyone has effects experience I doubt it will be turned down!

I believe I have the effects taken care of now.

EDIT: Thank you Jan for use of your F-86 Jan Rosenberg effects. They are working great now. :jump:

[Mach3DS]

Good news Milton! As soon as I can devote more than an hour at a time in this we'll be cooking with fire in the texture side!

[Mach3DS]

So I've gone through and removed references to obvious prop driven mechanisms. Key here was to try and blend in with the original textures, and not to try to redo them from scratch. Removed painted shadows from the main panel to allow for those with DX10 FSX or P3D to use VC shadows without it looking strange. Added placards that would be plausibly appropriate.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4490/38119640532_68e75a0c99_o.jpg

[Mach3DS]

How do we solve for way tiny effects in P3D? AB specifically?

[Milton Shupe]

How do we solve for way tiny effects in P3D? AB specifically?


Screenshot please

[Josh Patterson]

The J33-A-29 isn't your F-16 or F15 with burners just blasting out the back end. Much less power so mostly we should see the flame inside the pipe. But if anyone has effects experience I doubt it will be turned down!
In relation to this, do you know of anyone who has a nice MiG-17 "lick 'o flame" effect for my Bear Studios Fresco? None I've tried come anywhere near the cartoon like flame that comes out the back of Randy Ball's MiG-17! (It was especially impressive at EAA's night show last year!!) Better yet, how would one go about animating a flame effect? I'm always willing to try new things and help if possible!

[Seahawk72s]

Gentlemen, understand that there are only 2 pictures of the cockpit that I'm aware of. Both are of the piece in the USAF museum, and both are terribly out of focus! They are useless for reference. As such, Milton and I discussed converting the XP72 VC for use in the XF-92A. This greatly reduces production time. It also is in line with the spirit of the actual production of the real thing. Where parts were borrowed from off the shelf inventory. Also, being a test aircraft, there were no externa lights, and navigation equipment was likely lmited to a single ADF. Though I'm up for something more modern in order to facilitate use with VORs for ease of sim use.

Would it be possible to see the USAF museum photos..?
Really just curious...

[Mach3DS]

Sorry I thought it was 2, there are 4 interior shots with only ONE of the main panel... all fuzzy and and no whole shots...too bad. If someone who lives nearby would like to take some shots of the interior if possible, I would like to see it, even for just curiosity sake!


http://daytonipms.com/Walks/XF-92/CockpitInstPanelFront.jpg

http://daytonipms.com/Walks/XF-92/CockpitStbdWall.jpg

http://daytonipms.com/Walks/XF-92/CockpitStbdWallDetail.jpg

http://daytonipms.com/Walks/XF-92/CockpitSeatFront.jpg

[Mach3DS]

Panel lines are coming. Now that I've got everything mapped from Milton, the real work can begin! Rivets on canopy, wings complete. Fuselage started along with fuse panel lines. Can't wait to tackle the inlet. The Anti-glare shield here represents "Phase I" testing where all flights were conducted by CONVAIR test pilots only. USAF pilots including Chuck Yeager, didn't come onto the scene until "Phase II", and NACA Pilots didn't kick the Tires until "Phase III". Please note there is NO BUMPS, place holder ALPHA (so I can see the rivets), and NO SPEC, and limited fresnel in play.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4470/26396292349_e97e65f23c_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4571/26396292599_b66f49885c_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4571/26396292769_d2b03d10b9_o.jpg

[Milton Shupe]

Ah, all that work is starting to look like a real aircraft now. :-) :applause:

[Switchblade408]

Another AWESOME add-on coming down the pipeline!

[Moses03]

Interesting project! I think I built a plastic model of it when I was a lad.

Can't but help notice the fillet at the tip of the fin though. (Milton- probably too far along to worry about a little niggle like that).

https://i.imgur.com/MeH6xA9.jpg

[Milton Shupe]

Interesting project! I think I built a plastic model of it when I was a lad.

Can't but help notice the fillet at the tip of the fin though. (Milton- probably too far along to worry about a little niggle like that).

https://i.imgur.com/MeH6xA9.jpg

LOL Ole Eagle eyes. Thanks for that observation.

The left side rudder actuator housing is quite a bit smaller than the right side, I suspect after which the drawings were made.
The right side housed two cameras and was much larger.

See the attached.

But I will reduce the left side so it is more at the appropriate size for the rudder actuator housing.

Thanks :-)

[Mach3DS]

Might he also be referring to the actual tip of the rudder at the top being pointy instead of rounded as in the photo? Looks like we both missed that detail... Probably easy one to miss too, because the ailerons are pointed. So it probably looked right to us both! Lol. Nice to see so many detailed oriented people here!

[Mach3DS]

I will be painting both cameras Milton! Have no fear. They will be included!

What will be nice, is that we have some neat camera options for P3D, so for those users I plan on having camera locations in those positions.

[Flyboy208]

What a cool project Guys ! Can't wait to fly her ! Mike :applause:

[warchild]

Sorry I thought it was 2, there are 4 interior shots with only ONE of the main panel... all fuzzy and and no whole shots...too bad. If someone who lives nearby would like to take some shots of the interior if possible, I would like to see it, even for just curiosity sake!


http://daytonipms.com/Walks/XF-92/CockpitInstPanelFront.jpg

http://daytonipms.com/Walks/XF-92/CockpitStbdWall.jpg

http://daytonipms.com/Walks/XF-92/CockpitStbdWallDetail.jpg

http://daytonipms.com/Walks/XF-92/CockpitSeatFront.jpg

Those look like a JJ Abrams movie with all that light bloom..

[Milton Shupe]

I will be painting both cameras Milton! Have no fear. They will be included!

What will be nice, is that we have some neat camera options for P3D, so for those users I plan on having camera locations in those positions.

I think one camera was used to capture the movement of the air flow of the right wing decorated in flow strings. Not sure about the other.

I have corrected the left side rudder actuator, but will now go back and correct the tip.

Edit: now corrected and changes sent to Rick.

[Moses03]

Something I'm curious about that you probably know already is the elevons length. Is it a set length or does it extend to the tip of the wing? There are 3-views that support both but in this youtube video you can see it does not extend to the end of the wing. The bare metal version looks this way but maybe it was modified on the later painted white version?

Note 5:10 into this clip:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVjaiMXvCTQ

3-view showing "short" elevons.

https://i.imgur.com/LQYjEP3.jpg

[Milton Shupe]

There were 3 versions I believe. Rick can likely explain it better but I modeled them per the 3 sets of 3-views I have. We are aware that there was a different set for trial to try to fix the massive pitch up issue they were experiencing.

EDIT: I have pictures of the bare metal version that shows it both ways so they apparently changed to full width fairly early. All the painted versions show a full width elevon.

EDIT: there were also several different sets of wing fences used. We modeled with and without as an option.

There were also different camera setups in case you find one that is different. I have pics with none, one, and two cameras. This was a test machine and a lot of changes took place.

[Moses03]

Rgr that Milton. Interesting ship for sure.

[Mach3DS]

There's was a version where the elevons were short and we're like a Mirage elevon not extending to include wingtip. However we went with three later model and engine, which used full elevon to the wing tip. This allowed for the tip to extend into the slip stream below the wing kind of like a counter balance. However, the 3 view you are showing above is for a model (RC likely?) And not the actual aircraft. We elected the full elevon because it was used most in phase 2 and 3. Along with wing fences. We have those as optionally selected from a VC switch. We also have an intake test article that installs with the wing fences.

[Milton Shupe]

We have modeled the version with the afterburner installed. AFAIK, all afterburner models had the full width elevon.

[Mach3DS]

Yes, to my knowledge that is correct Milton.

[Mach3DS]

Something I'm curious about that you probably know already is the elevons length. Is it a set length or does it extend to the tip of the wing? There are 3-views that support both but in this youtube video you can see it does not extend to the end of the wing. The bare metal version looks this way but maybe it was modified on the later painted white version?

Note 5:10 into this clip:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVjaiMXvCTQ

3-view showing "short" elevons.

https://i.imgur.com/LQYjEP3.jpg

The problem with this aircraft is:

It lacks a definitive source of chronological events. Sundog sent me a great article about this program but given it's details the photo record contains anomalies. For instance..."phase I" should have been bare metal with a J33A23 engine. But there's photos showing the no wing fence bare metal J33-A-29 afterburning engine with full wing tip elevon. Even though the record states that "phase II" is when the new engine and paint job should have been!

So I will paint the original Phase I, Phase II bare metal, Phase II White, and Phase III NACA white.

[magoo]

Jeepers, Milton.

I think you may have come down with a bug.

After years of consistent radial engine designs, we're witnessing two similar curios in close succession.

Mid engine pushers with unorthodox air-frame design, both from the Consolidated-Vultee frame of mind.....

Now, I suspect that the cure for this disorder may be something like putting the lime in the coconut and drink it all down.....but in this regard I believe you may have found a healthier solution, turning the affliction into the cure.

One can't help but notice all the folks who're clamoring to catch what you've got...... :mixed-smiley-010:

Next thing you'll be telling us that the sound barrier can be broken, and pilots will have rocket powered seats to escape aircraft in distress....!?! (I know, I know....it will never end...... :encouragement: )

[Milton Shupe]

Jeepers, Milton.

I think you may have come down with a bug.

After years of consistent radial engine designs, we're witnessing two similar curios in close succession.

Mid engine pushers with unorthodox air-frame design, both from the Consolidated-Vultee frame of mind.....

Now, I suspect that the cure for this disorder may be something like putting the lime in the coconut and drink it all down.....but in this regard I believe you may have found a healthier solution, turning the affliction into the cure.

One can't help but notice all the folks who're clamoring to catch what you've got...... :mixed-smiley-010:

Next thing you'll be telling us that the sound barrier can be broken, and pilots will have rocket powered seats to escape aircraft in distress....!?! (I know, I know....it will never end...... :encouragement: )

I knew you would show up with an observation so well stated. Fact is, I am having withdrawal symptoms as we speak, and have delved into a S2A Tracker conversion to sooth the pain. Ugghhh!

[magoo]

Ahhh....the fever is breaking. I had a hunch you'd come out of it stronger!!

:ernaehrung004:

[tankerguy72]

Fact is, I am having withdrawal symptoms as we speak, and have delved into a S2A Tracker conversion to sooth the pain. Ugghhh!

Well that is some great news there!:wiggle:

[falcon409]

I'm sure this has crossed the mind of the experts here, but my guess is that while there were official "Phase I, Phase II and Phase III" testing that was documented, I have to wonder if, in between all that, there wasn't a fair amount of . . ."Hey, let's stick this on there and see what we get" testing as well. It's possible that some photos were taken during those impromptu "Phases". . .attributed to whatever Phase they happened to be in at the time, but not officially documented as such.

[Mach3DS]

I'm sure this has crossed the mind of the experts here, but my guess is that while there were official "Phase I, Phase II and Phase III" testing that was documented, I have to wonder if, in between all that, there wasn't a fair amount of . . ."Hey, let's stick this on there and see what we get" testing as well. It's possible that some photos were taken during those impromptu "Phases". . .attributed to whatever Phase they happened to be in at the time, but not officially documented as such.

Precisely! Which is why I think there are photos that I can't resolve within the official "Phases". Hit the nail on the head!

[Milton Shupe]

Well that is some great news there!:wiggle:

TG, weren't you working on some native FSX Tracker tanker conversions. Don't want to step on any toes here.

I have the S2A well underway here for 76 and the green livery.

[tankerguy72]

Yes, but have ran into trouble switching to windows 10 then trying to get projects transferred from GMAX to 3DS

[Milton Shupe]

Yes, but have ran into trouble switching to windows 10 then trying to get projects transferred from GMAX to 3DS

Ah, a good reason to have a Windows 7 development box or dual boot.

Which model are you doing, and do you intend to complete it?

I am doing the S2A-CDF and will do the S2T's if you are not.

[tankerguy72]

Ill send you a PM... Dont want to hijack this thread

[Mach3DS]

A little more progress. Still no bumps specs and just a place holder alpha... But closer to the deal lighting.


https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4507/24353748918_237a577da9_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4494/26430151169_361db87595_o.jpg

[mig21bis]

Beautiful body work, Rick - in that upper picture, looks like wing leading edge does not quite join with the fuselage? Or is that a dynamic shadow error induced by the sim itself?

[Mach3DS]

Shadow error....I noticed it too.... Nothing we can do about that. Thanks T!

[Milton Shupe]

Beautiful body work, Rick - in that upper picture, looks like wing leading edge does not quite join with the fuselage? Or is that a dynamic shadow error induced by the sim itself?


I also get the same shadow error in FSXA. The parts (rudder actuator housing, and the camera housing on the other side) actually extend into the vtail so it is not a join issue. There may be a way to modify the parts to "change" the shadow drawing. I would have to experiment with that.

[Bjoern]

You'll have to make the geometry "watertight" (one single part or - worse - creating a fully featured fuselage-wing intersection with welded vertices between them) in order to draw (more or less) correct shadows.

[Javis]

A little more progress. Still no bumps specs and just a place holder alpha... But closer to the deal lighting.



That looks drop dead gorgeous, Rick, apart from the vstab you could sell that as a photo of the real thing ! :encouragement:

[Duckie]

Rick, the metal "staining" visible in the first screen shot is outstanding. Great job.

[Mach3DS]

Thanks Javis and Duckie!

Here's some behind the scenes of typical back and forth between Milton and I while Milton was head down in modeling for those interested. I would send stuff like this to him and he would send back to me with responses and or further clarification needed. Or on many occasions, he would clarify me on an issue!

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4475/38211015012_f7e6201ced_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4493/38211160732_ddd2c7f0f9_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4534/38188439346_6d4a6560f5_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4456/24371374448_c5ab542324_o.jpg

[Mach3DS]

I should also mention that working with Milton during this whole process has been nothing but fun! Of course I would say that! He's done almost all the work! LOL...but in all honesty, it's been great to work with such a legend in the community. Thanks Milton!

[Milton Shupe]

One of the great things of retirement is I get to work on these projects all day long. And when I need to communicate to ask a question or get input, its great when the other party is also available for near-immediate responses.

Wellis being retired is a good match up for my work as he is also retired.

Rick, although younger and working, has been awesome with timely responses and finding resources. So, that limited downtown to almost nothing.

When a team clicks like that, things go quickly and progress is great.

I started the modeling and mapping on October 16th, 2017 and completed it mostly last week.
In that time, I was also able to put together a reasonable flight model for testing, merge in a VC and make it "jet-able", swap gauges (thank you Jan), borrow some jet sounds, do some custom xml, and generally wrap up my part of this.

The fact that the design is simple (no round engines, cowl flaps, flaps, props, etc) went a long way to shorten the modeling and mapping hours.

Thanks Rick :-)

[Mach3DS]

Thanks Milton! I credit my smart phone with the ability to send all those hand drawn up photos to you.... Multitasking in between meetings, or while doing honey do list items or yard work!

[Mach3DS]

Milton revised the nose section slightly to a more accurate shape. I've added more rivets...can't see them yet. You will when bumps are created. Stars and bars added for test.



https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4575/24382724438_fa4a4c000f_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4539/37543230264_d7fbc95dbd_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4575/24382723948_798b9c9435_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4526/37543229964_945a4c0249_o.jpg

[Milton Shupe]

That's shaping up nicely Rick. :applause: Great looking metal progress,

[oldmsgt]

Milton & Rick

Looking fantastic! This is going to be great!

The Old Master Sergeant

[Sundog]

That's going to be so much fun to fly! Nice work so far guys. :)

[tankerguy72]

This is looking awesome! Im not a jet guy at all, but with these two pros on this masterpiece I will definitely be taking it up for a spin :applause: Great job Milton and Rick

[Moses03]

Found this technical report on the Convair. Maybe there is a nugget or two in there that will help the project.

Kevin

[Milton Shupe]

Found this technical report on the Convair. Maybe there is a nugget or two in there that will help the project.

Kevin

Excellent find Moses.

From what I've read so far, this will be very useful. :-)

The afterburner augmentation at 100% (11,800) rpms I had correct at 7500 lbs thrust but had not seen that statement before.

The fuel capacity of 560 gals we have, but in 7 cells functioning as 3 tanks is new information.

The performance data is awesome to have. That will be very useful.
Drag coefficient is ideal to have. :-)

[Mach3DS]

These are the dogs I have. This was not one of them! Thank you!

55539

[Mach3DS]

Doing a little light testing. Dynamic Reflection ON and then OFF. Both have their place, and both look good, but it's different lighting...DR is still too washed out IMHO. It's not contrasted enough to produce the reflection well enough yet.

added more rivets since last for the rivet counters...lol....

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4584/24406029738_a12015bba6_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4560/24406029558_c8e419afaa_o.jpg

[gman5250]

At this stage of the game, DR does not seem like it is going to be a simple switch on and off option. Models set up to do a certain thing with light, specular, Fresnel and Global Reflection are gong to render washed out, contrasty and bright in DR mode. It is a quandary.:dizzy:

That aside, the model looks great!

[JensOle]

It is very interesting to follow the progress on this special little delta! I know the feeling when you are working with a great team and everything is just happening smoothly. I had a great time with Henk and Dave Q when we did the Viggen rework project (and we have done quite a few other projects as well).

Keep up the great work! And Milton, It seems like you are involved in all the projects there are on this forum these days :-) Seriously, thank you for your time and effort with bringing these old aircraft to live for us in FS!

[Mach3DS]

At this stage of the game, DR does not seem like it is going to be a simple switch on and off option. Models set up to do a certain thing with light, specular, Fresnel and Global Reflection are gong to render washed out, contrasty and bright in DR mode. It is a quandary.:dizzy:

That aside, the model looks great!

I don't fully understand how DR works under the hood, and if settings can be tweaked? But you're right Gordon, as painters we have to basically choose which setting we will cater to, as both cannot work optimally from the same texture set.

Thanks! This has been a great learning experience for me! And working with Milton has been great. We've got a few more model revisions to make ad I made a large Discovery of never before seen photos in the mother of all XF-92A archives yesterday. :-)

[Milton Shupe]

Model revisions about done now; will have them to you today Rick. :wavey:

[odourboy]

I made a large Discovery of never before seen photos in the mother of all XF-92A archives yesterday. :-)

Have you come across s decent cockpit photo yet? If so, could you post it or post a link to the archive? I'm very curious! :wavey:

[mig21bis]

What would be an historically accurate chase plane to get ready, for videos we'll create of your new XF-92? T-33X, F-80X, or F-86?

Rick, does that large photo archive you discovered show chase planes?

Toby

[Mach3DS]

go to Flickr.com and do a search for "CONVAIR XF-92A"


Behold the only known (to me) cockpit photo of the XF-92A

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3027/4559158899_5bc839eb53_o.jpg

[Mach3DS]

What would be an historically accurate chase plane to get ready, for videos we'll create of your new XF-92? T-33X, F-80X, or F-86?

Rick, does that large photo archive you discovered show chase planes?

Toby

Either F-80 or F-86 T. I think those would be accurate period chase aircraft. I think T-33 would have been too late?

[mig21bis]

Thanks to your Flickr reference, Rick, here it is - plainer than day, chase plane was F-86. We'll use the MilViz model - ready when the XF-92 is released!

Was testing done at EDW?

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=55570&stc=1

[odourboy]

go to Flickr.com and do a search for "CONVAIR XF-92A"


Behold the only known (to me) cockpit photo of the XF-92A

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3027/4559158899_5bc839eb53_o.jpg

That's a great shot! Too bad the flickr copy is so small.

Don't know if this helps at all, but I enlarged and did some enhancing of that flickr photo.

https://s1.postimg.org/3g9q00a10f/FX-92_Cockpit_PS_Enhanced.jpg

[Mach3DS]

The VC at this stage will be kept as the XP72/54 port over as it's late in the game...but I don't put it past Milton to take on a project like this...however, I won't speak for him as for our agreement we decided that VC wouldn't be done since no reference pics existed (until this one showed up). But even this one isn't really good enough to use as reference to model a VC. I don't want to burden Milton with anything more than he's willing to do. Since this was my pet project, I'm just happy he was willing to do the exterior and port over one of his other fantastic VC's for use in it!

[Milton Shupe]

Looking for prop or jet engine blast effects for this project. Anyone know of available freeware effects that might be converted for the xf92a?

Would also be nice to see some "heat shimmer" behind the exhaust when sitting static if you have knowledge of that effect somewhere.

Thanks in advance.

[MrZippy]

Looking for prop or jet engine blast effects for this project. Anyone know of available freeware effects that might be converted for the xf92a?

Would also be nice to see some "heat shimmer" behind the exhaust when sitting static if you have knowledge of that effect somewhere.

Thanks in advance.


I have a jet engine heat shimmer effect that I can email to you early tomorrow morning! What is a jet/prop blast effect? Is that when the jet/prop engine spools up and blasts dust and dirt off of the runway?

[Milton Shupe]

I have a jet engine heat shimmer effect that I can email to you early tomorrow morning! What is a jet/prop blast effect? Is that when the jet/prop engine spools up and blasts dust and dirt off of the runway?


Thank you; yes, exactly.

I will control both based on N2 % range setting, one at idle, and the blast for the takeoff run.

EDIT: Update - I now have the perfect heat shimmer effect, and working on the jet blast; I am now happy with what I have. Just need to tweak a bit more and add an xml gauge and some model xml to control when they show.

[Mach3DS]

You're going above and beyond Milton! :encouragement::encouragement:

[Mach3DS]

Decided to take a break form Riveting and make the Nose Wheel Door interiors.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4535/38318457262_e813bbae70_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4548/24478575388_0dfda71b14_o.jpg

[Mach3DS]

Interior Gear doors and bays complete. Now onto the V-stab and I'll be ready for Bumps! I've done the interior canopy as well to try and fit in with the current VC. Keep in mind, this is still a place holder alpha, there's no specular or bumps, and limited FRESNEL effect right now.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4559/38396246126_e027672cea_o.jpg

[Penzoil3]

Looking very good, can't wait to fly it. Thanks guys.
Sue

[Mach3DS]

Took a break today to fly.... Go figure! I'll be starting the tail rivets and panel lines tomorrow and completing out the fuselage riveting. Hopefully I will have the bumps completed this weekend.

[Mach3DS]

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4548/26721468279_554059e0a5_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4572/37781977554_94044fc1c1_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4519/37781978294_97fb958a9c_o.jpg

[Mach3DS]

Tail panel lines and rivets complete! Now to finish off the fuselage. I added some camera port locations. You can see a little better the detail in the nose wheel doors and main gear. Still no bumps, specs and limited FRESNEL as well as placeholder alpha channel.

[magoo]

Amazing textures, Rick.

Looks like a very slippery aircraft.

I've gone online and twiddled through a host of images, and see no evidence that the original machine was ever fitted with any form of air brake.

Certainly the delta platform could generate a ton of drag once a high angle of attack was achieved on final, but getting this plane to slow down into pattern must have taken some planning to stay ahead of the aircraft......

....Muroc/Edwards would be the place to be when you touch ground..........

[Mach3DS]

Thanks Magoo! Agreed, we absolutely have no air brake on this aircraft! It is most certainly a tough bird to slow down if you're flying straight lines. One way to overcome this is to start practicing your S-turns! ;-)

[PhantomTweak]

Looks like a very slippery aircraft.
My feelings are for the poor ground crew that has to polish that thing.
Must use a few gallons of Mother's Aluminum Polish every day to keep it looking like that.

Have fun, all!
Pat☺

[Mach3DS]

Oh yes! Lol. The final version will not be this reflective and smooth looking. That's a result of missing texture sets and a placeholder reflective texture. ;)

[Mach3DS]

bumps almost done...specular being dialed in...

new effects...thanks Milton!

Base paint almost complete.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4567/37622870545_ee4d7dff96_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4525/38453806226_96bccefbd6_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4533/38453805756_7a7fff493f_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4556/38453805996_86cb7e9792_o.jpg

[jeansy]

stunning, you have way more patience than me mate, i would given up a long time ago over shear boredom of repetitive rivet making

again stunning work its paying off

[Duckie]

Beautiful work, Rick. Thanks for the progress shots.

[Mach3DS]

Many thanks guys! I can't wait to share this with you!

[Mach3DS]

I'm starting to now refine the base alpha layer and create a more permanent spec file. If you're going to use dynamic reflections, make sure it's set to ULTRA. (Image 1 and 2). Otherwise you don't get the same effect. Or simply don't use dynamic reflections at all! (Image 3).


https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4543/24681475428_5e205c1813_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4552/38521934012_39124caa37_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4518/24681475148_a391df0f25_o.jpg

[Sundog]

That's looking outstanding Rick. As someone who has made textures before, I've always failed at metal textures and you've really invested a lot of time in getting these right. Thanks for all of the hard work.

[Switchblade408]

This is going to be so great when released. I have a video series running on Facebook and Youtube and I'm planning on doing a bit involving the XF-92, F-102, and F-106 aircraft. All I'm missing is the XF-92. :applause:

[Mach3DS]

Thanks everyone. Milton has been working hard. There are still a few feature items that are being nailed down. Just a couple more shots. Here's you can see the option for wing fences and the intake test article. These are available through a switch in the VC. The XF-92A had a period where they tested wing fences. There is a set which appears in some photos, however it's with an early version where the wing tips where not part of the elevon s. So, the likelihood that more than one wing fence configuration was tested is fairly high, so we elected to take some artistic license, albeit, limited and show the fences with the latter all moveable elevons. You can also see the intake FOD cover and chalks.


https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4519/38556930581_97f3fd2b27_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4569/38556930691_a2800045d2_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4550/38556930881_c993c94120_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4563/38556931031_ce2fc4655d_o.jpg

[Mach3DS]

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4519/38556930651_ea5b93be43_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4536/38556930721_1b2e49a82c_o.jpg

[Mach3DS]

This is going to be so great when released. I have a video series running on Facebook and Youtube and I'm planning on doing a bit involving the XF-92, F-102, and F-106 aircraft. All I'm missing is the XF-92. :applause:

What video series is this? Can you point me a link?

[Mach3DS]

That's looking outstanding Rick. As someone who has made textures before, I've always failed at metal textures and you've really invested a lot of time in getting these right. Thanks for all of the hard work.

Thank you! Your email was very helpful in filling some major gaps about Timeline, design, and program objectives. And there was enough information to use deduction against other information to make accurate assumptions as to other gaps in the information log.

[Mach3DS]

Starting to dial in the specular now for the metal brightness. Placeholder animation for vapor effects..

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4550/24703202678_9421e15acf_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4538/38543337182_260c7421d5_o.jpg

[Mach3DS]

And with Dynamic reflections ON.


https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4524/37687423985_d1c330fb22_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4580/37858576884_401f607a50_o.jpg

[lliaghll]

That is SO beautiful.

[Mach3DS]

Thank you! Now all we need is a brave pilot to fly her! Lol! I believe that is in work behind the scenes.

[Javis]

Sam's right here, yessir, feeling quite at home already but there's still some checkups and other titbits to finish up.

http://sectionf8.com/f86files/Sam.jpg

The model/textures look absolutely fabulous, Rick ! :encouragement:

cheers,
jan
http://sectionf8.com/f86files/sam.jpg

[Mach3DS]

Javis that's beautiful! Very excited to put a real pilot back at the controls! Haha. Not that I'm not a real pilot... That's not the point. The point is that I don't look as cool as this guy does!

[Sundog]

What Rick said, that pilot looks awesome!

[Milton Shupe]

Amazing work on the pilot figure and supporting attire Jan. If people only knew how hard you have had to work to even work on it. :-0

[Mach3DS]

Here's a raw video of the metal n action. Remember this is WIP. I will be running down the reflectivity with some good old fashioned dirt and oxidation, but not by much as the real deal was very clean and though not chromed was buffed aluminum which is very reflective in it's own right. Enjoy!


https://youtu.be/WidB3dpFpU0

[dvj]

Here's a raw video of the metal n action. Remember this is WIP. I will be running down the reflectivity with some good old fashioned dirt and oxidation, but not by much as the real deal was very clean and though not chromed was buffed aluminum which is very reflective in it's own right. Enjoy!


https://youtu.be/WidB3dpFpU0

Looks great. Agree that it appears a little bright. But what a fine looking jet.

-d

[binarkansas]

From an old geezer who's been flying the virtual skies since first buying the Chuck Yeager Flight simulator, if anyone remembers that one.

Though usually a lurker only, this project has compelled me to publicly state my thanks, admiration and excitement for the XF-92A project and for everyone associated with it. I've been watching the progress of this project with unbridled enthusiasm. I've dragged every delta wing fighter and every jet trainer I own into my current hangar. Daily, I check this thread and then go fly the Dart or the Dagger, the Skyhawk and the wonderful free Goshawk, the old Buckeye, the L-39, the beautifully redone T-33, and even Ants T-28s and both T-34s. Can't wait to kick the tires, light the fires and see, if like Yeager, I can land this little Delta at 65 knots!!!!

As I'm sure most of us regular, untalented simmers, who have loved all the models Milton and team have given us, I'm in awe of this model. Keep up the great work, I hope to be first in line for download when it's ready. Now for a little more practice in the Dart, sure wish I could see the runway out of that thing! If it's not apparent, this project has stirred up my emotions more than any in recent memory.

Thank you Milton and Team.

[Mach3DS]

Thanks for the compliments dvj & binarkansas! This little jet is a blast to fly. Yes, I had Chuck Yeager's air combat game. I remember being blown away at how cool that was and remeber the"3D" looking shapes and the electronic arts logo at the start.....

What's been fun during this project is all the research and learning about this aircraft. Information is scarce, but what there is, anywhere out there, I believe we've read it.

One story that I can debunk is the story of Chuck Yeager landing at 65 knots! A common saying in my business is "don't let the truth get in the way of a good story,!" LOL. When I read this story of Yeager landing at 65 knots I was impressed... But a little skeptical. Being a real pilot and working in aerospace it didn't sit well with me, as much as I love Yeager and the swagger that he had in aviation circles. The truth of the matter is that Yeager had good hands. Meaning he could fly anything, and fly it well. He was able to fly the jet at 30 degrees AoA and 65 knots. The geometry of the jet would not allow this in a landing configuration. The trail pipe would strike the ground first on an approach at this speed. So while the jet could fly at this extreme envelope corner, not in landing configuration. ;-) Chuck Yeager is still my hero!

[MrZippy]

Should this Silver Dart be named Glamourus Glynnis?:ernaehrung004:

[Mach3DS]

Yes! Haha. I believe Yeager achieved Super Sonic speed in the XF-92A. He did not arrive on the program until Phase II.

Phase I - CONVAIR Research
Phase II - USAF Flight testing
Phase III - NACA Research

To see just how reflective and bright buffed aluminum was on this bird in direct sunlight with blue skies, see this video starting at 5:46. Watch the whole thing of course... LOL.


https://youtu.be/2HKQ87g4SsQ

[Mach3DS]

Before my primary HDD went on the fritz (no worries, files backed up, and new SSD installed.. Thanks Black Friday) I started to oxidize the aluminum... This is to much... But it will be toned down a bit from here.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4551/38572311356_d315d7a661_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4573/38628515511_8b3a58e775_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4553/38572311636_2c1245e97c_o.jpg

[tankerguy72]

Really impressive work on the textures Rick!:applause:

[Sundog]

Great work Rick, those shots look amazing. :)

[Josh Patterson]

Geez Rick, those look amazing! Seems a shame they ever painted it! I'm a big fan of silver jets with tons 'o color! Was saddened when EAA sold "The Huff" and it was painted in Golden Knights colors.

[Mach3DS]

Thanks guys! I finally have Photoshop CC reinstalled. My system is running much better now with the SSD... Can't believe how fast it is!

Thanks guys for the words. I'm trying a new method of surface painting. No, I'm not using quixel or any or material painting software...though I would mind trying that out.

[Mach3DS]

Getting close to completing the base livery. Refining spec, adding dirt and leaks. Just saw the first images of pilot sized in plane. It's starting to look good! Once the base is complete, the other variants will easily come.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4517/24822222218_c7bda14284_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4521/37977105794_f5fc487595_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4569/24822221948_ea0c572167_o.jpg

[Javis]

Awesome, Rick !! :applause::ernaehrung004::applause:

[mig21bis]

Super cool, Rick and Milton. Let's get this baby up with a Sabre chase plane and make some video!

Toby

[noddy]

:applause: :ernaehrung004::encouragement:

[Mach3DS]

Super cool, Rick and Milton. Let's get this baby up with a Sabre chase plane and make some video!

Toby

Yes! That will definitely happen Toby! Textures are not quite there yet. A few more external details to do. But we'll definitely take that photo flight!

[Mach3DS]

I think I'm satisfied with the final Metal appearance. Now to tackle the Additional Paints. The first 2 are complete. Phase I and Phase II Metal. I'll be doing the Phase III All White (the most widely photographed) and possibly the "MiG-23" from Jet Pilot movie which never saw the film.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4584/25015412508_102b707b8e_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4579/25015412318_ccb2ba7b46_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4519/24021884737_ba644f300f_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4558/24021884977_65f7340abe_o.jpg

[jankees]

beautiful!

[IFlySWA]

Wonderful! :applause: Really looking forward to the release of this beauty. :biggrin-new:

Brian

[Duckie]

Awesome Rick! :encouragement: :encouragement:

[mikewmac]

Spectacular Rick! :encouragement:

[tankerguy72]

simply stunning!

[Sundog]

Yeah, those latest images make me thing, "Nice pics of the plane, when do we get to see images of the FSX model?" ;)

The is some of the best jet metal work I've seen. Nice job.

[nigel richards]

Before my primary HDD went on the fritz (no worries, files backed up, and new SSD installed.. Thanks Black Friday) I started to oxidize the aluminum... This is to much... But it will be toned down a bit from here.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4551/38572311356_d315d7a661_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4573/38628515511_8b3a58e775_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4553/38572311636_2c1245e97c_o.jpg

Exceptionally beautiful model, and texture work, Gentlemen. :-)

[Mach3DS]

Many thanks all! There are a few features that are being worked out right now, if feasible thiey will be included. I'll hold off until I get a green light. But it should be a fun little airplane to fly.

[mal998]

15 or 20 years ago we never could have imagined that sim aircraft could possibly look this way. Progress is an amazing thing. Metal is as metal does...that looks terrific.

[fliger747]

Very beautiful! Interesting one has a stall fence on the wing and one does not. A very perfect delta plan. A friend of mine soloed himself in a Mig 21 which has a similar planform but conventional tail feathers. A pioneering design, most more modern designs use a somewhat different leading edge shape to energize the boundary layer at high AOA on approach (or ACM as well).

Flying in the area of reverse command with slow spooling pure turbojets must have been interesting!

[Mach3DS]

Yes, the Fences are an option. As first version of the plane had them, along with Elevons which stopped short of the fences and wing tips. Since we opted for the Afterburner model, which had all moving Trailing edge elevons, we opted to allow for wing fences which were also tested during the USAF and NACA phases. There's no photos, of them so we took some artistic liberty based on the fact that multiple configurations were likely tested, to place them in about where the F-102 had them.

http://www.airplanesofthepast.com/images/airforce-archives/yf-102a-delta-dagger--sn-31782-fc782.jpg

[Mach3DS]

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4636/38893492212_e2aefbdf8b_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4549/38893492102_9cf2258d3b_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4645/38042713635_af4223c464_o.jpg

[scotth6]

These screenshots are amazing...... they all look like works of aviation art. Nice work Rick!

[Mach3DS]

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4591/24065059647_404ee9d2fc_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4543/24065059917_b3a7b5808d_o.jpg

[Mach3DS]

These screenshots are amazing...... they all look like works of aviation art. Nice work Rick!

Thank you muchly!

[Mach3DS]

Enter the AB! Thanks Brian! I'll post a list of features which are now included tomorrow. This project is really coming along. Thanks for the interest and all the help!

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4690/38964772442_2fed53fbe1_o.jpg

[MrZippy]

Good looking reheat Rick! Does it come with marshmallows?:applause:

[Javis]

These screenshots are amazing...... they all look like works of aviation art. Nice work Rick!

100% agreed!

As much as i love bare metal that white dress does look fantastic on her ! Well done, Rick ! :encouragement:

[Mach3DS]

Unique features (confirmed thus far as working) include:

1. VC selectable wing fences and inlet test vane.
2. Wing vapor effects.
3. High G/AoA airframe buffet.
4. Throttle AB detent sound with AB engagement sound.
5. Period pilot figure

There's one more major item that I would like to implement but it's beyond my skills. I imagine that I need to have a fairly competent coder, like Brian or Bjoern. We'll see if I can convince someone! For now I'll leave it at this.

[Bjoern]

Unique features (confirmed thus far as working) include:

1. VC selectable wing fences and inlet test vane.


Why not make this permanently selectable?
(Info for Milton; needs to be coded into the model.)


<PartInfo>
<Name>XF-92_Wing_Fences</Name>
<Visibility>
<Parameter>
<Code>
(A:TITLE, string) 'FENCES' sstr 0 &gt; if{ 1 } els{ 0 }
</Code>
</Parameter>
</Visibility>
</PartInfo>

Will activate when "FENCES" is contained in the [fltsim.x] entry's "title=" line.


<PartInfo>
<Name>XF-92_Inlet_Vane</Name>
<Visibility>
<Parameter>
<Code>
(A:TITLE, string) 'INL_VANE' sstr 0 &gt; if{ 1 } els{ 0 }
</Code>
</Parameter>
</Visibility>
</PartInfo>

Will activate when "INL_VANE" is contained in the [fltsim.x] entry's "title=" line.

So all you'll have to do is create multiple [fltsim.x] entries for each configuration and you can select them from the aircraft menu. Next advantage: Milton won't have to export three different models. Third advantage: With a bit of folder and config file path magic, you can even have slightly different flight dynamics for each one. without many redundant model files and textures. 125% efficiency!



There's one more major item that I would like to implement but it's beyond my skills. I imagine that I need to have a fairly competent coder, like Brian or Bjoern. We'll see if I can convince someone! For now I'll leave it at this.

If it's engine related shenanigans, I'd provide a more universally applicable approach SOMEDAY. I've got a UI template set up for an engine damage gauge, but it is configured for piston engines and still lacks most, if not all, systems interactions. One of these days, it's going to be adapted to jets and turboprops, so you can put it into any plane you want. However, the whole thing is on the backburner since most of my dev time is taken up by the A320 and Metro.

[Milton Shupe]

Why not make this permanently selectable?
(Info for Milton; needs to be coded into the model.)


<PartInfo>
<Name>XF-92_Wing_Fences</Name>
<Visibility>
<Parameter>
<Code>
(A:TITLE, string) 'FENCES' sstr 0 &gt; if{ 1 } els{ 0 }
</Code>
</Parameter>
</Visibility>
</PartInfo>

Will activate when "FENCES" is contained in the [fltsim.x] entry's "title=" line.


<PartInfo>
<Name>XF-92_Inlet_Vane</Name>
<Visibility>
<Parameter>
<Code>
(A:TITLE, string) 'INL_VANE' sstr 0 &gt; if{ 1 } els{ 0 }
</Code>
</Parameter>
</Visibility>
</PartInfo>

Will activate when "INL_VANE" is contained in the [fltsim.x] entry's "title=" line.

So all you'll have to do is create multiple [fltsim.x] entries for each configuration and you can select them from the aircraft menu. Next advantage: Milton won't have to export three different models. Third advantage: With a bit of folder and config file path magic, you can even have slightly different flight dynamics for each one. without many redundant model files and textures. 125% efficiency!




If it's engine related shenanigans, I'd provide a more universally applicable approach SOMEDAY. I've got a UI template set up for an engine damage gauge, but it is configured for piston engines and still lacks most, if not all, systems interactions. One of these days, it's going to be adapted to jets and turboprops, so you can put it into any plane you want. However, the whole thing is on the backburner since most of my dev time is taken up by the A320 and Metro.

Thanks for your comments Bjoern. There is only one model currently.
The wing fences are currently selectable in the VC by gauge. I think Rick has something else in mind.

[Mach3DS]

After discovering the actual shape of the ONLY wing fences used in flight testing for data gathering purposes, Milton was kind enough to indulge me with a redesign. This is the precise shape of the exact wing fence used...a freak find while reading through a flight test report....reading pays off! Stay in school kids!


https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4725/25178918678_0b433e5561_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4585/38163671925_32a9ef0811_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4568/25178918828_6cdbfe2910_o.jpg

[binarkansas]

The talent gone into the making of this model is fantastic. Every progress report, every new screen shot is better than the last. I, for one, check this thread everyday. I am anxiously awaiting the day I see it is ready for download. Again, I, for one and looking more forward to the completion of this model than to anything the big man in the red suit might put under the tree for me this year.

The skill of the team working on this model is very impressive.

Keep the updates coming.

Barry

[Sundog]

Until you threw the white paint on it, I had never noticed that the canopy support arms weren't recessed and rested on the fuselage when the canopy was closed. Nice find on the wing fences, it's looking great.

[Mach3DS]

Thanks Jan, Barry and Sundog! It's getting close to a public beta.

What still needs to happen:

1. FDE refinement.
2. A few external texture details.
3. Redo of interior canopy rail details
4. Getting the pilot in there! (Javis is working this right now).
5. My secret wishlist project item(s).

[Mach3DS]

Added Vortex tufts, Final bits are the visible panels. This is difficult because they changed over time and testing what panels were actually there. So It will end up being a slight hybrid and simplified for quality sake. But should be true to the spirit of the various modifications that were made.

So far I have the original paint. The Phase II, Phase III Original White, and this one, which will also have the X's aboard.


https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4537/39030415422_a99c6969ed_o.jpg

[Mach3DS]

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4643/38415422454_8c42e5d12b_o.jpg

[Jafo]

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4643/38415422454_8c42e5d12b_o.jpg

Rick....I think you're cheating again.....that's the real plane....;)

[Switchblade408]

Haven't seen anything on this one in a couple of weeks. How's this project coming along?