Joy stick center point detent?

[PRB]

I'm buying a new stick. Been meaning to for some time. I've been limping along with an old Logitech Extreme 3D Pro, and now it won't calibrate anymore and is stuck with a significant left roll input.

The only thing I really don't like about this stick is the center point has a "detent" that you can feel. Air plane stick don't go "thunk" when they're centered. Hate that. The question for those of you with relatively new joy sticks – does yours have a "detent" at the center point that you can feel? If not, what kind is it? I'm going to buy one!

[SSI01]

Following this one with interest as I have the identical stick.

[Stickshaker]

I have a Thrustmaster Warthog with the same annoying snag. I don’t know whether it is intentional, but I need so much force to move it from the center position that precise flying is harder than it should be. For the rest I can recommend the stick.

[Bjoern]

TM.16000M and yes, but I don't mind.

[PhantomTweak]

I have the Thrustmaster HOTAS X, stick only (no throttle unit). It has an adjustment knob on the bottom to adjust the tension required to move the stick. I have it adjusted to give me "feel" without any sort of center detent feeling. It moves off-center just as easily as any other motion. And the farther off-center, the more force required to move it. Maybe not "realistic" on the ground, but in flight it feels great.

Just my 2 pfennnig worth :)
Pat☺

[PRB]

I have the Thrustmaster HOTAS X, stick only (no throttle unit). It has an adjustment knob on the bottom to adjust the tension required to move the stick. I have it adjusted to give me "feel" without any sort of center detent feeling. It moves off-center just as easily as any other motion. And the farther off-center, the more force required to move it. Maybe not "realistic" on the ground, but in flight it feels great.

Just my 2 pfennnig worth :)
Pat☺

This one sounds like what I'm after! :encouragement:

[Willy]

P, check your PMs.

[vortex]

Look for a Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 joystick. Long out of production but built like a tank and well worth looking for on sites like eBay. The default force feedback in FSX is rubbish but if you use it with a payware add-on called FS Force, the forces are about as realistic as you're going to get in a PC-based sim. Along with all of the normal control feedback you'd expect, you feel bumps on the ground, turbulence and approaching the stall in the air and you get "real" stick trim - move the trimmer and you can feel the stick move to the new datum. It transforms FSX.

[Bradburger]

Look for a Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 joystick. Long out of production but built like a tank and well worth looking for on sites like eBay. The default force feedback in FSX is rubbish but if you use it with a payware add-on called FS Force, the forces are about as realistic as you're going to get in a PC-based sim. Along with all of the normal control feedback you'd expect, you feel bumps on the ground, turbulence and approaching the stall in the air and you get "real" stick trim - move the trimmer and you can feel the stick move to the new datum. It transforms FSX.

I too recommend the Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2.

Picked up 3 spares in excellent condition and nicely priced from ebay.

Two are the earlier version with a green light and come in a blue box.

(As for the need for FS Force, the truth is, the FF effects in FSX are fine and work very well, it's just that no one knows or bothers to set the parameters in the airfile properly, following the example of the default MS air files. And the trim actually works as it should in a real aircraft too!)

Also worth getting hold of it's non FF brother, the Sidewinder 2 if you don't want to pay for the force feedback feature.

Again, picked up a few of these on ebay, and on the plus side, they can be had for much cheaper prices, with the same build quality as the FF version.

Cheers

Paul

[blanston12]

I still use my Logitech all the time, I have tried others, including recently an x-56 but keep coming back to it. And since it's still being made if something went wrong with it I would by another without much hesitation

[PRB]

Thanks for the opinions shipmates. Haven't decided what to buy yet, but your posts are helping. :)

[alehead]

Don't write off the Warthog too quickly. The feel is amazing, particularly when you extend it with an extension tube. Not cheap, but the best stick on the market short of a real thing. The extension tubes have the effect of weakening the stiff centring spring, the one I got is around 15cm in length... if you wish , I can post a quick photo tomorrow...

A


Andrew Entwistle

[Willy]

Here's the MS Sidewinder Precision Pro stick identical to the one that I use:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52557&stc=1

I bought mine new in '99. I started having an issue with a couple of the switches in the handle a few months ago and replaced them with a set from a my old low mileage FFB version (and a few other switches as well from the low mileage stick). No calibration needed as there's no pot switches in there. It uses a similar setup to an optical mouse.

FFB version:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52558&stc=1

The issue that I and others ran into back in the day with the FFB version has a separate power supply. Without it, the stick won't function. I've got a couple of these (in pieces) as parts for the non-FFB Sidewinder, but the only bits that do swap out around the handle assemblies and the switches inside the handles. Nothing in the base will swap out. The FFB also has some led lights in the handle, but the non-FFB doesn't have those. I did end up using the FFB handle as the texturing in the plastic was worn slick smooth in the one I've used for years.

MS Sidewinder Precision Pro 2:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52567&stc=1

Similar name, but not near the stick the previous version is. Not as many programmable buttons and they went back to pot switches in it which require occasional calibrating.

[Willy]

My misadventures last month in Sidewinder land.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php/106592-Microsoft-Sidewinder-Precision-Pro-joystick-overhaul

[Jafo]

https://www.miniplanes.fr/images/products/29056/SAI-X65F.jpg
X65F ...absolutely no 'detents' as there are no moving parts at all anyway.
As 'analog' and seamless as your muscles...;)

[Ivan]

Plus Three on the Microsoft SideWinders.

I believe I have just about all the versions that Willy showed as well as the older SideWinder 3D Pro and an even earlier one without the hat switch which is not really that useful for a flight simulator.
The only one I do not have is the Force Feedback 2.

Although I have a force feedback joystick, I don't use it much because although the experience may be more "realistic", it isn't anywhere near as precise as the non force feedback versions.

I have a Saitek stick somewhere that feels very comparable to the SideWinders but I have never actually powered it up.

I had been thinking that the old SideWinders were a little too old to mention here, but apparently they still compare well.

Please note though that of the half dozen Precision Pro joysticks that I have, one of them has a slight deviation between the spring center and the sensor center which causes an intermittent control input. Funny thing is that it is the first one I bought and the one I paid the most for.

YMMV.
- Ivan.

[Stickshaker]

Don't write off the Warthog too quickly. The feel is amazing, particularly when you extend it with an extension tube. Not cheap, but the best stick on the market short of a real thing. The extension tubes have the effect of weakening the stiff centring spring, the one I got is around 15cm in length... if you wish , I can post a quick photo tomorrow...

A


Andrew Entwistle

Good point, Alehead. Going to give that a try.

[Willy]

About 10 years ago, I found a Saitek Cyborg Rumble Force stick on sale for what I felt to be a ridiculously low price. It followed me home and I tried it for a couple of days. In FS, it had a constant slight vibration to it and I quickly went back to my Sidewinder. Other than the vibration, it seemed to be a nice enough stick, but the ol' Sidewinder just seemed to suit me better.

[vortex]

The only one I do not have is the Force Feedback 2.

Although I have a force feedback joystick, I don't use it much because although the experience may be more "realistic", it isn't anywhere near as precise as the non force feedback versions.

I can't comment on the original Microsoft Force Feedback stick (FF1 - as shown in Willy's post), but I have a Precision Pro stick and it's not as accurate as my FF2. The FF2 is, apparently, much better all round than the FF1 and, unlike the FF1, it just needs a mains lead as the power adapter is built in. I can't emphasise enough what a good stick the FF2 is. There are no springs holding the stick in position, it's all done by the internal motors so you don't get that sloppy neutral position that conventional sticks tend to develop. When you're sitting on the ground with no airflow over the controls, the stick just flops forward but becomes increasingly stiffer and more centred as you accelerate.

[Ganter]

This one sounds like what I'm after! :encouragement:

Another thumbs up for the Thrustmaster HOTAS.

I'm on my second one in over fifteen years. The first just got plain wore out after many, many years faithful service.
I splashed on the new TM Hotas with separate throttle controller. I ain't never flying with anything else.

As Pat says - it has a tensioning ring underneath which can go from zero detent to really quite firm. I, like Pat have mine dialled all the way out. It's a good sturdy stick, not over-buttoned, and will take all the aggresive input commands you can throw at it.

https://s1.postimg.org/vmq6226i7/Thrustmaster_HOTAS_X.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[PhantomTweak]

Yup, that's the critter. My wife has the one with the throttle, I have the stick only model. It does, like nearly every joystick, have a slider for the throttle functions.
I do really love the feel of it. Most especially, though, to my mind, is that it's a tunnel diode design, instead of the good old potentiometer set up that joysticks started out with. They can't get dirty, or drift, or have varying size null zones...none of the disadvantages pots have. I set the null zones to 0 (full left), and the sensitivities full right, and just enjoy flying. Only exception is that I set the rudder null zone to a very slight value, so that if and when my hand shifts it a little during other motions the stick won't pick it up. Other than that...
Great for helicopters especially, since it picks up every little twitch, and with the tension adjust way down, it makes flying them, especially using HTR, a real joy. I never flew a chopper in real life, but from what several friends have told me that, without a full motion sim, it's a pretty good simulation of how they actually fly. I'm working on a HTR config file for the MV-22, but due to the rotor tilt, it's a real adventure...

Have fun all!
Pat☺

[Ivan]

I can't comment on the original Microsoft Force Feedback stick (FF1 - as shown in Willy's post), but I have a Precision Pro stick and it's not as accurate as my FF2. The FF2 is, apparently, much better all round than the FF1 and, unlike the FF1, it just needs a mains lead as the power adapter is built in. I can't emphasise enough what a good stick the FF2 is. There are no springs holding the stick in position, it's all done by the internal motors so you don't get that sloppy neutral position that conventional sticks tend to develop. When you're sitting on the ground with no airflow over the controls, the stick just flops forward but becomes increasingly stiffer and more centred as you accelerate.

Thanks Vortex,

I will keep a lookout for a good deal on the Force Feedback 2.
Ideally, I would like to see it installed and operational on a demo machine in the store before buying, but PC games don't seem to be getting nearly the same attention as console games in the stores.

The problem though is that the "force feedback" effect is tuned by the developer of the aircraft and at least in Combat Flight Simulator, there is not a lot of consistency in how well they / we do it.

- Ivan.

[Ganter]

Yup, that's the critter. My wife has the one with the throttle, I have the stick only model. It does, like nearly every joystick, have a slider for the throttle functions.

Great for helicopters especially, since it picks up every little twitch, and with the tension adjust way down, it makes flying them, especially using HTR, a real joy.
Have fun all!
Pat☺


Exactly Pat, for the same reason it's bang on for VTOLs in the Harrier and F-35B.
In the Harrier - on the throttle and stick below 50 KIAS - you're only ever a hairs breadth - "a little twitch" - away from uncontrolled flight into terrain (or boat).

Great fun!

If it's good enough for this...

https://s1.postimg.org/5ylh6dbq7/shar7.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

It's good enough for anything :encouragement:

[vortex]

The problem though is that the "force feedback" effect is tuned by the developer of the aircraft and at least in Combat Flight Simulator, there is not a lot of consistency in how well they / we do it.

That's the beauty of using FS Force (http://fs-force.com/index.htm) to process the force feedback effects. You turn off the default FF in FSX and you can then either assign a unique, fully customisable profile to each aircraft if you want or just pick a profile from the list provided. The default forces in FSX are rubbish and made me think that I'd wasted my money buying the FF2 stick. FS Force may seem a little expensive but the difference it makes is definitely worth the investment.