RA Dukes

[AussieMan]

Anyone know where I can purchase the Real Air Duke V2 and the Turbine Duke V2? I was on the verge of buying them when the closed up shop.

[ncooper]

Hello,

I see only a few DVD copies but of version 1.
It looks like it might be easier to find a real Duke for sale than a
RealAir one.

[Bjoern]

You're out of luck for now as there are no more shops offering the last line of RealAir products.

Rumor has it that a new publisher is going to take care of their aircraft, but it could be weeks/months/years/decades/centuries/millennia till this happens.


Two euro cents: Pulling products from shops without offering any alternative is awful PR. If you can't go on with your product line, either find a new publisher or offer the stuff with a discount, but without support (see RAZBAM) or go freeware (RFP 742). I do understand the RealAir team's motivation to leave things aside, but I just can't fathom why they wouldn't want the additional revenue...

[ncooper]

Hello,

I think it's clear from their "closing statements" that for them, there are things
that are far more important than money.

[BrittMac]

I agree that there are things more important that money. Also, I applaud the RA staff for that. I do wish that there was a system/resource for getting their wonderful models after they decided not to keep going. I think that even if they didn't decide to keep the development going on airplanes, they could have at least kept an option open for purchase of what they have done.
That being said (no I do not have the expertise), I only hope that the RA legacy can keep on.

[heywooood]

call me the devil's advocate, but if there is no more 'Real Air' entity then what is to prevent the software from being shared freely?
They don't seem interested in this product in any way shape or form - that's the same as a release from EULA...

[Blackbird686]

call me the devil's advocate, but if there is no more 'Real Air' entity then what is to prevent the software from being shared freely?
They don't seem interested in this product in any way shape or form - that's the same as a release from EULA...

And there probably will not be an "official" statement from RealAir indicating that that sort of thing is now permissible, since as an "entity"... they no longer exist. It's a tough call. I tried numerous times to contact Rob regarding the licensed copy of the Sf.260 I have, some time shortly after the announcement they made about closing up. No joy in Mudville.

BB686:US-flag:

[heywooood]

I had purchased both the SF260 and the Citabria years ago - both files since displaced by new hard drives and so forth..Both models were very good and I would love to have them back.

The Duke and Spitfire were on my short list when the hammer dropped. I just wonder how there can be an EULA if the license holder vacates the agreement first. How do you break trust with an empty house??

[txnetcop]

I had the 260 and Duke also but that was two hard drives ago. My backup drive self-destructed. I know the feeling. I loved the 260 the most. I really hate that they went out of business because they sure made some great simulated aircraft!
Ted

[blanston12]

call me the devil's advocate, but if there is no more 'Real Air' entity then what is to prevent the software from being shared freely?
They don't seem interested in this product in any way shape or form - that's the same as a release from EULA...
Just because RealAir has gone inactive and don't want to sell there products, does not mean they have given up their ownership rights, they may decide to use it another way in the future.

[heywooood]

Just because RealAir has gone inactive and don't want to sell there products, does not mean they have given up their ownership rights, they may decide to use it another way in the future.

I don't see how they correlate. They still have the original files. No one is saying lets change the models or reconfigure them. WE are not talking about the source code which is their IP - only sharing the files as they exist and since they are no longer a source of revenue and no one is being harmed financially it is difficult if not impossible to see what the problem is.

[blanston12]

I don't see how they correlate. They still have the original files. No one is saying lets change the models or reconfigure them. WE are not talking about the source code which is their IP - only sharing the files as they exist and since they are no longer a source of revenue and no one is being harmed financially it is difficult if not impossible to see what the problem is.
Its still there right to use it as they wish. They may decide in the future to sell it to someone else, but if we flood the market with free copies that reduces the value of there property. No different from Microsoft deciding they don't want to sell FSX any more so they can sell it to someone else.

[BendyFlyer]

Heywoood and others - because a business no longer trades does not mean they have given up the copyright to the products they made and sold previously. The only time you or I can freely hand over such material to any other person or make it available is if you can prove (at law) they have abandoned the product. That is the law internationally and within various US and EU jurisdictions regarding this problem. I can sympathise with folks frustration when this happens.

How can I speak with certainty about this, simple I had cause to redo and rebuild two of JBK's models with particular reference to the VC's etc. the Hythe which was converted back into a Sunderland MK V and the Shorts S23 or C Class flying boat. Every effort to contact JBK met a dead end (he may even have passed away) and then additionally I need copyright approval or public license for a number of the gauges etc I used. To their credit everybody associated with SIMOUTHOUSE and Just Flight said no problem you can do that as it is not for sale but the textures and turret mods were done by a chap in NZ who has never responded to any of my requests but is still active on some flight sim forums, as a result I cannot upload or distribute these products. I lack the legal proof on one hand the models have been abandoned and I also lack the required permission from the copyright owner of part of the work to get it out and available. It is a nightmare problem.

I would be looking to see if you can find one that fell off the back of a truck and keep it to yourself. In my case I left an email trail as long as the interstate so I can do nothing.

[Blackbird686]

Heywoood and others - because a business no longer trades does not mean they have given up the copyright to the products they made and sold previously. The only time you or I can freely hand over such material to any other person or make it available is if you can prove (at law) they have abandoned the product. That is the law internationally and within various US and EU jurisdictions regarding this problem. I can sympathise with folks frustration when this happens. I would be looking to see if you can find one that fell off the back of a truck and keep it to yourself. In my case I left an email trail as long as the interstate so I can do nothing.

I get the copyright to their products bit. But as you so stated, an e-mail trail as long as Interstate 9 seems proof enough that they have abandoned their paying customers who at one time had a specific product, or new customers who are looking to procure their products. Just say'in.

BB686:US-flag:

[ncooper]

The products have indeed not been abandoned.

The installers still require you to log in to the RealAir account before they will run
and doing that allows a re-install.

The original question was are they still available and in my humble view, the answer is no.

To refer to another quiet remark, they have always been made available by the unscrupulous
to the equally unscrupulous and I expect that they still are.

[heywooood]

Its still there right to use it as they wish. They may decide in the future to sell it to someone else, but if we flood the market with free copies that reduces the value of there property. No different from Microsoft deciding they don't want to sell FSX any more so they can sell it to someone else.

Sorry - completely different as MS is still a viable company. Still open for business while RA is gone.

[heywooood]

Also I am beginning to resent the implication that I am advocating piracy or theft of an IP. Why is it that a reasonable conversation cannot be had about abandoned sofware being shared. There is no theft where there is no ownership or marketplace. No one is suggesting the files be altered or resold, merely shared. If there is no proprietor, how can proprietary rights be infringed upon? Remember - I'm just asking a question and not encouraging or endorsing a crime.

[heywooood]

The products have indeed not been abandoned.

The installers still require you to log in to the RealAir account before they will run
and doing that allows a re-install.

The original question was are they still available and in my humble view, the answer is no.

To refer to another quiet remark, they have always been made available by the unscrupulous
to the equally unscrupulous and I expect that they still are.

you can log in to this site???
http://www.realairsimulations.com

[rvn817j]

Over the years Rob and the other folks at RealAir did a fantastic job of supporting the flight sim community. I think at this time, they deserve our thanks and respect.

A copyright (at least in the U.S.) lasts for somewhere between 95 years and the life of the author plus 70 years. The definition of copyright abandonment from Wikipedia states -

"Abandonment is recognized as the explicit release of material by a copyright (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright) holder into the public domain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain). However, statutory abandonment is legally a tricky issue which has little relevant case precedent to establish how an artist can abandon their copyright during their lifetime. The more common approach is to license work under a scheme that provides for public use rather than strictly abandoning copyright.

Copyright (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright) protection attaches to a work as soon as it is fixed in a tangible medium, whether the copyright holder desires this protection or not. Before the Copyright Act of 1976 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Act_of_1976) an artist could abandon or forfeit their copyright by neglecting to comply with the relevant formalities (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_formalities). Difficulty arises when one tries to apply the doctrine of abandonment to present-day concerns regarding the abandonment or gifting of a digitized work to the public domain. The abandonment of a work is difficult to prove in court, though Learned Hand proposed a test which parallels other forms of abandonment law wherein an author or copyright holder could abandon their work if they intend to abandon it and commit an overt act to make public that intention.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonment_%28legal%29#cite_note-4) Despite this test, the current legal environment towards protectionism is so strong that a court might disregard an author’s statements regarding their intent."

As suggested above, abandonment has nothing to do with choosing not to sell or provide further support of the work. The bottom line is that the copyright of RealAir will continue in their works.

I'm not thrilled with this result, but I'm going to respect the decision RealAir made (AND only beg this one time that they re-open sales of their products for a 2 or 4 week window so I can purchase the models I don't have). Good luck to Rob and the other RealAir folks.

[hairyspin]

You need a competent lawyer's opinion at a minimum, not ours. And if developers are in fact deceased the copyright entitlements probably pass to their heirs so tread carefully, old boy. edit: as just posted above, cheers Jay!

[heywooood]

now there is a solid reply, rvn - thank you for taking the time to post it.

everyone can appreciate making a personal decision based on respect, and the laws pertaining to copyright are explicit. It is also generally up to the holder to enforce those protections.

AS I said - I have no urge to promote or participate in IP theft or piracy. I merely posed a question. I have purchased the SF260 and the Citabria which I bought long ago. I have no remnants of those purchases left on any functioning hard drive - mea culpa - so I have no proof of purchase to show. It just seems such a waste to lose access to the artwork forever in this way.

[heywooood]

You need a competent lawyer's opinion

that is true on either side of the question - key word 'competent' or even 'licensed'...

[Blackbird686]

now there is a solid reply, rvn - thank you for taking the time to post it.

everyone can appreciate making a personal decision based on respect, and the laws pertaining to copyright are explicit. It is also generally up to the holder to enforce those protections.

AS I said - I have no urge to promote or participate in IP theft or piracy. I merely posed a question. I have purchased the SF260 and the Citabria which I bought long ago. I have no remnants of those purchases left on any functioning hard drive - mea culpa - so I have no proof of purchase to show. It just seems such a waste to lose access to the artwork forever in this way.

I don't believe I said anything about piracy here, and I don't think it was implied by anyone else. JMO. I am in agreement that if you had a licensed copy of a RealAir model and lost it in a hard drive crash, there should be a way to retrieve it legally. I have the Spitfire MkXIV and the Sf.260 for FS9 and thankfully the hard drive I installed 3 years ago on my FS9 machine is still holding up. I also have them backed up on a separate HD along with the purchase codes. I tried logging into the RealAir website to no avail, its gone. Still, unless an authorized someone comes along and makes a formal announcement about the RealAir software, one way or another, I'll continue to adhere to the agreement I made with them when I purchased those. Sad tho... I would have really liked to have procured the Spitfire IX for FSX.

BB686:US-flag:

[blanston12]

I think I remember reading that they planned on releasing new installers in the future that would work once there website disappears, when they do that I hope they just make them freeware. But we will have to wait for them to do that.

[BendyFlyer]

Well here is an answer re RealAir. I had to reinstall the Spitfire today for reasons relating to a complete cluster on FSX, which has required a rebuild from the start.

(I am a bit smarter now I keep hardcopy backups of all the relevant key FSX files that would otherwise mean endless hours of work but I digress).

The install went flawlessly, it went off on the internet somewhere, verified my purchase then installed the Spifire (Big sigh of relief) not only that I was able to download additional extra textures that I did not have before as part of the original download. I think it went to a Cloud site, but that does not matter, I still was able to get back the product and install it. So if you have the product you can still get some sort of service but alas not buy anything else. So it is not abandoned in any sense, just withdrawn from sale, which is of course the vendors right.

[Flapsfull]

Blackbird and others,

not sure if it helps, but both the FSX Spitfire and the SF260(dual FSX&FS9version) are still available on the german aerosoft online - store website , actually both are even on a kind of permanent sale, at 10€ each, which is excellent value for the money, if you ask me.

The only drawback is, they are on disk media/DVD , so depending on where you live, the mailorder fee might make
it cost-prohibitive, despite the sale.

Whats strange is, they don't show up on the english version of the website,so be sure to switch to the german flag symbol on the top of site , if my link should be automatically
be redirected to an english version on your computer.
(Hopefully there are enough icons and intuitive buttons/ interface to manage the Checkout&pay process without being fluent in german.

http://www.aerosoft.com/de/search?sSearch=realair

Hope this helps,

Kind regards,

Oliver

[BrittMac]

I've seen a couple sites, like pcaviator and fspilotshop, and all the RealAir stuff that is available is disc media only. I'd guess that RealAir can't really ask retailers not to sell their stock, but, they can ask to pull links for downloadable content.

[Penzoil3]

http://www.flight1.com/products.asp?product=F1E-RAD-001

[cavaricooper]

As Nick said elsewhere, they work splendidly in Prepar3D, and I have enjoyed many an hour at Heron’s Nest in the Citabria on floats. I do still have the TD2 and plan on installing as soon as the sound issues are sorted....

Meanwhile, should anyone be able to point me to the Legacy 2 I’d be obliged!

Best- Carl