Techies any opinions?

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

I have several times posted new computer system specs but never could quite justify to myself spending the money even when my accountant (wife) said go ahead. Does that make me cheap? Anyway my 12 year old computer is packing it in and I been on a tablet for near a month.

I pretty well know how to buy most parts as drives and video cards and such. My questions really come down to a couple issues.

How much CPU power is really needed for an enjoyable fsx experience? Is 3 ghz enuff? 4? 4.5? What? I know everyone will say it depends but assuming other good parts how much? Assume orbx level stuff. In your experience.

Where I am going with this is Ryzen 1600x 6 core at close to 4 ghz well 3.7 at least vs kabylake i5 7600 at 4 or a bit more. Is the difference really discernable?

I know fs and maybe farm simulator and the truck simulator I plan to buy are heavy single core based - well fs anyway. I know there is generally no replacement for displacement but how much is enuff?

So why ryzen well I also process photographs with capture one an like YouTube running and who knows what else. So using multithreaded Ryzen processors may be the ticket as Intel isn't even close to ryzen in mulithreading.

Also I am wondering if ryzen processors can surpass the apparent now (only a month after release) the 4 ghz wall they seem to be running into through updated bios and such.

Decisions decisions...

-Ed-

[Montie]

Ryzen 1600X seems to be the best balance between gaming and productivity at the moment. The price point is really great. Fast single core performance is still the way to go in regards to FSX/P3D. This may change with P3D 64bit, hopefully they make it multi threaded. More and more games are focused on multi threaded performance. I am looking to Ryzen 1600X as my next build. AMD is actively updating the micro code of the Ryzen chips for better performance. Ryzen is a good future proof option.

[txnetcop]

Ed, I am in the process of building a Ryzen 1600 for a friend...I'll let you know the results. The type of memory bus speed you use for Ryzen does seem to make a real difference. He does fly FSX and X-Plane 11. Everything I read about Ryzen seems impressive but there are still things to be worked out...we'll see how this build goes.

I also just built a Skylake 6700k for a friend last month that I OC'd to 4.5 Ghz and it is a killer system. It plays everything he throws at it without a problem to include X-plane 11 with the new world scenery. That new EVGA SC 1080 4GB video card is awesome! He had a GTX 780 SC that was pretty nice as well but wanted to upgrade. With X-Plane 11 I think that was a good move because it does rely heavily on CPU and GPU. One of the guys I am friendly with on Youtube used to work for Newegg as a hardware specialist. He has a great video on comparisons for Ryzen and KabyLake vs Skylake. One of the things he discovered in his benchmarking was that when Kaby Lake and Skylake CPUs were OC'd to 4.8 ghz the numbers were just about even on comparisons...shocked me!

Kaby Lake vs Skylake Benchmarks! 7600K and 7700K vs 6600K and 6700K
https://youtu.be/HDfHHxRQy6I

RYZEN 5 REVIEW! 1500X + 1600X Gaming Benchmarks vs 7600Khttps://youtu.be/3VvwWTQKCZs

Ted

[Bjoern]

My usual advice for FSX PCs is taking the highest clocked CPUs one can find and then combine it with the highest clocked RAM, a fast and large SSD and a consumer-level video card.

I'm not quite up to spec on what's exactly all the rage at the moment, but an i5 CPU that can do 4 GHz or more (on turbo), 8 or 16 GB of 2400 MHz DDR4 RAM (in two modules), a 512 GB SSD and at least a GTX 1060 can be a starting point to scoiut some reviews and hardware shops. If your budget won't do for that, take everything down a notch.

[fsxar177]

To add to what's already been said..

Have www.ecollegepc.com build you one. It will save you $1000 compared to going to the store, or buying a "gaming" PC online.

They use great components, and you get to pick and choose every item to your desire.

I've had three Flight-Sim spec computers built by them. All have performed flawlessly. And all have come in under budget.

- Joseph

[gradyhappyg]

The problem with building a PC to run FSX is the 4GB OOM wall that no matter how much you spend you just can't avoid. So I wouldn't make the same mistake I did and build a super PC thinking you will get to fly full right sliders and 100 fps. Truth is you can but not for long. Still have to tone down the graphics because of the darn 32 bit program. Can't wait for P3D to go 64 bits.

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

The more I think about it the more I lean Ryzen. I've no doubt that Intel is "safer" in the short term. But I suspect the future is multi-threading more than clock speed. Even that said I read where really crazy extreme single core overclocking of Ryzen has got to 5.8 ghz. I suspect there is lots of potential in the ryzen platform that RAM and motherboards haven't maximized. I'm thinking with ryzen down the road I may need to change motherboard and/or RAM and/or cpu. Other components may be ok for awhile. Any agreement?

It is a risk being on the bleeding edge. I'm watching overclocking forums really close for RAM motherboard combos even tho I don't always understand the lingo. I do want Matx tho.

The 4 gb oom I've never heard of. It suggests you cannot pile up high end add-ons at high detail an fly for hours no matter how good your computer is as it is an fsx limit. Am I right? Another consideration. A new p3d 64 bit game will change this?

My old computer was fs9 only at moderate settings so I'm ok with that. I have fsx on it but rarely flew it as all my $ investment was in fs9.

That computer building site isn't Canadian from what I could tell.

-Ed-

[TuFun]

I find this site interesting... sorta a computer builders showing how and prices and such.

https://pcpartpicker.com/

[txnetcop]

Well, I am having a devil of time getting RYZEN to equal the performance of even the i5-6400 4.4ghz performance I use as a benchmark setup. I also cannot exceed the 3.94 GHz speed no matter what memory speed I use. AMD says they are still working on memory issues and I was sent this article: I did update the UEFI ROM on the ASUS A4 Prime B350 PLUS motherboard. I am using 4 modules of G.Skill TridentZ DDR4 3600 set at 2400 MT/s because of FSX issues...may try Corsair Dominator 3600 modules. It does run FSX nicely at 50 plus fps even in the big cities until I add FTX Global and then I start getting stutters and a considerable drop in fps. Still working on it...update to come.

Posted by rhallock (https://community.amd.com/people/rhallock) https://community.amd.com/resources/statics/rolebadges/roleBadge-4-1002-1431754362075.png in Gaming (https://community.amd.com/community/gaming/blog) on Mar 13, 2017 11:41:13 PMThe AMD Ryzen™ processor is a completely new and different platform from what gamers may be accustomed to, and established practices for configuring a system may prove incorrect or unreliable. We’ve assembled the following configuration steps to ensure users are extracting the best possible performance and reliability from their new PC.

Update Your FirmwareEnsure that you are using the latest UEFI ROM for your motherboard.


The latest ROMs will support the Windows 10 tickless kernel for best application performance.
Newer ROMs can improve the functionality/stability of your motherboard and its UEFI menu options.


Memory MattersAMD Ryzen™ processors have an appetite for faster system RAM, but it’s important to ensure that you have a solid setup before proceeding.



The AMD Ryzen™ processor does not offer memory dividers for DDR4-3000 or DDR4-3400. Users shooting for higher memory clocks should aim for 3200 or 3500 MT/s.
Memory vendors have also begun to validate 32GB (4x8GB) kits at 3200 MT/s (https://community.amd.com/external-link.jspa?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FADATATec hnology%2Fstatus%2F839294184544595968) rates for select motherboards.
Ensure that you are programming your BIOS with the recommended timings (CAS/tRCD/tRP/tRAS/tRC/CMD) and voltages specified on the DRAM packaging.
To ensure reliable POST, the AMD Ryzen™ processor may fall back to a DIMM’s JEDEC SPD “safe” timings in the event an overclock proves unreliable. Most DIMMs are programmed to boot at DDR4-2133 unless otherwise instructed by the BIOS, so be sure your desired overclock is in place before performance testing. Use CPU-Z in Windows to confirm (https://community.amd.com/external-link.jspa?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cpuid.com%2Fsoftwar es%2Fcpu-z.html).
For speed grades greater than DDR4-2667, please refer to a motherboard vendor’s memory QVL list. Each motherboard vendor tests specific speeds, modules, and capacities for their motherboards, and can help you find a memory pairing that works well. It is important you stick to this list for the best and most reliable results.1
We have internally observed good results from 2933, 3200, and 3500 MT/s rates with 16GB kits based on Samsung “B-die” memory chips. Potential kits include:

Geil EVO X - GEX416GB3200C16DC [16-16-16-36 @ 1.35v]
G.Skill Trident Z - F4-3200C16D-16GTZR [16-18-18-36 @ 1.35v]
Corsair CMK16GX4M2B3200C16 VERSION 5.39 [16-18-18-36 @ 1.35v]


Finally, as part of AMDs ongoing development of the new AM4 platform, AMD will increase support for overclocked memory configurations with higher memory multipliers. We intend to issue updates to motherboard partners in May that will enable them, on whatever products they choose, to support speeds higher than the current DDR4-3200 limit without refclk adjustments. AMD Ryzen™ processors already deliver great performance in prosumer, workstation, and gaming workloads, and this update will permit even more value and performance for enthusiasts who chose to run overclocked memory.
AMD’s officially-supported DRAM configurations are below for your reference:



DDR4 Speed (MT/s)

Memory Ranks
DIMM Quantities


2667
Single
2


2400
Dual
2


2133
Single
4


1866
Dual
4




Mind Your Power PlanMake sure the Windows® 10 High Performance power plan is being used (picture). The High Performance plan offers two key benefits:



Core Parking OFF: Idle CPU cores are instantaneously available for thread scheduling. In contrast, the Balanced plan aggressively places idle CPU cores into low power states. This can cause additional latency when un-parking cores to accommodate varying loads.
Fast frequency change: The AMD Ryzen™ processor can alter its voltage and frequency states in the 1ms intervals natively supported by the “Zen” architecture. In contrast, the Balanced plan may take longer for voltage and frequency changes due to software participation in power state changes.


In the near term, we recommend that games and other high-performance applications are complemented by the High Performance plan. By the first week of April, AMD intends to provide an update for AMD Ryzen™ processors that optimizes the power policy parameters of the Balanced plan to favor performance more consistent with the typical usage models of a desktop PC.

The Observer EffectEnsure there are no background CPU temperature or frequency monitoring tools when performance is essential. Real-time performance measurement tools can have an observer effect that impacts performance, especially if the monitoring resolution (>1 sample/sec) is increased.

Overclocking!Overclocking is a time-tested and beloved way to squeeze even more “free” performance out of a system. That’s why every AMD Ryzen™ processor is unlocked for overclocking.2

Consider the example of the AMD Ryzen™ 7 1700 processor. It has a base clock of 3.0GHz, a two-core boost clock of 3.7GHz, an all-cores boost clock of 3.1GHz, and a 2-core XFR clock of 3.75GHz. Many have reported all-core overclocks of around 3.9GHz, which is a full 25% higher than the default behavior of the CPU.

PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHERTo test the performance impact of all of these various changes, we threw together a brand new Windows 10-based system with the following specifications:



AMD Ryzen™ 7 1800X (8C16T/3.6-4.0GHz)
16GB G.Skill (2x8) DDR4-3200

Clocked to 2133MT/s: 15-15-15-35-1t
Clocked to 2933MT/s: 14-14-14-30-1t


ASUS Crosshair VI Hero (5704 BIOS)
1x AMD Radeon™ RX 480 GPU (Radeon Software 17.2.1)
Windows 10 Anniversary Update (Build 14393.10)


Throughout this process we also discovered that F1™ 2016 generates a CPU topology map (hardware_settings_config.xml) when the game is installed. This file tells the game how many cores and threads the system’s processor supports. This settings file is stored in the Steam™ Cloud and appears to get resynced on any PC that installs F1™ 2016 from the same Steam account. Therefore: if a user had a 4-core processor without SMT, then reused that same game install on a new AMD Ryzen™ PC, the game would re-sync with the cloud and believe the new system is also the same old quad core CPU.

Only a fresh install of the game allowed for a new topology map that better interpreted the architecture of our AMD Ryzen™ processor. Score one for clean computing! But it wasn’t a complete victory. We also discovered that the new and better topology map still viewed Ryzen™ as a 16-core processor, rather than an 8-core processor with 16 threads. Even so, performance was noticeably improved with the updated topology map, and performance went up from there as we threw additional changes into the system.

As an ultimate maneuver, we asked the question: “Can we edit this file?” The answer is yes! As a final step, we configured F1™ 2016 to use 8 physical CPU cores, rather than the 16 it was detecting by default. Performance went up again! After all was said and done, we gained a whopping 35.53% from our baseline configuration showing how a series of little changes can add up to something big.

The picture tells the story clear as day: configuration matters.

https://community.amd.com/servlet/JiveServlet/downloadImage/38-1451-118340/1158-510/pastedImage_92.png (https://community.amd.com/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/38-1451-118340/pastedImage_92.png)

Robert Hallock is a technical marketing guy for AMD's CPU division. His/her postings are his own opinions and may not represent AMD’s positions, strategies or opinions. Links to third party sites are provided for convenience and unless explicitly stated, AMD is not responsible for the contents of such linked sites and no endorsement is implied.


Footnotes:
1. Overclocking memory will void any applicable AMD product warranty, even if such overclocking is enabled via AMD hardware and/or software. This may also void warranties offered by the system manufacturer or retailer or motherboard vendor. Users assume all risks and liabilities that may arise out of overclocking memory, including, without limitation, failure of or damage to RAM/hardware, reduced system performance and/or data loss, corruption or vulnerability. GD-112
2. AMD processors, including chipsets, CPUs, APUs and GPUs (collectively and individually "AMD processor"), are intended to be operated only within their associated specifications and factory settings. Operating your AMD processor outside of official AMD specifications or outside of factory settings, including but not limited to the conducting of overclocking using the Ryzen Master overclocking software, may damage your processor, affect the operation of your processor or the security features therein and/or lead to other problems, including but not limited to damage to your system components (including your motherboard and components thereon (e.g., memory)), system instabilities (e.g., data loss and corrupted images), reduction in system performance, shortened processor, system component and/or system life, and in extreme cases, total system failure. It is recommended that you save any important data before using the tool. AMD does not provide support or service for issues or damages related to use of an AMD processor outside of official AMD specifications or outside of factory settings. You may also not receive support or service from your board or system manufacturer. Please make sure you have saved all important data before using this overclocking software.


Ted

[Bjoern]

The more I think about it the more I lean Ryzen. I've no doubt that Intel is "safer" in the short term. But I suspect the future is multi-threading more than clock speed. Even that said I read where really crazy extreme single core overclocking of Ryzen has got to 5.8 ghz. I suspect there is lots of potential in the ryzen platform that RAM and motherboards haven't maximized. I'm thinking with ryzen down the road I may need to change motherboard and/or RAM and/or cpu. Other components may be ok for awhile. Any agreement?

Disagree. Efficiency by threading only goes so far, but clock speeds will always guarantee better performance, no matter if the application is native multithreaded 64 bit or 32 bit with a bit of multithreading thrown in.


The 4 gb oom I've never heard of. It suggests you cannot pile up high end add-ons at high detail an fly for hours no matter how good your computer is as it is an fsx limit. Am I right? Another consideration. A new p3d 64 bit game will change this?

Exactly and yes, as long as you go overboard with memory usage so that part of its content ends up in the slow page file.

[Bradburger]

Whilst the first video deals with performance issues and the Ryzen with X-Plane, you might find both of these videos by Michael Brown (of X-Force PC interesting), and of use for those using the new CPU with FSX: -


https://youtu.be/ltV8hecd1Lc


https://youtu.be/qrbNPHJ4aCA

Cheers

Paul

[Naismith]

4-way Ryzen vs Intel: Double Blind Experiment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybF7r4rogHc&t=719s

https://youtu.be/11NfsMykyAk

This guy knows his stuff.

[txnetcop]

I delivered the Skylake system i5 6600 4.5 GHz today and on X-plane 11 which is a true 64 bit flight simulator, with the new world scenery, everything maxed I was knocking out 70-80 fps constantly with a Gigabyte Z170XP MB and 8GB DDR4 Patriot Viper 4 3200MHz memory, using a EVGA GTX 1070 SC video card. I loaded FSX on it this morning and even with FTX Global and all the NA BLUE scenery NO STUTTERS and 50fps steady. Ryzen just does not handle 32 bit FSX very well at all. Of course my friend made me erase all the FSX stuff-he is definitely not a fan. Spoiled Sport! It does handle X-Plane 11 very well, but no better than Intel Skylake. I am sure the same is true for Kaby Lake processors. I think Intel is still a better, safer build to make, at least at this time for 32 bit P3D and FSX. I also believe the best dependable gamer CPU for Ryzen is Ryzen 5 1600, but again no better than Intel i5 and i7. I saw the Forbes article saying Ryzen 5 1600 beat the Kaby Lake processor...they better verify those specs again. Those looked fudged!
Ted

https://youtu.be/L4K7eIEAJx0

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

I agree that if you want max fsx performance today - buy Intel - whatever flavor you want. However... An interesting thread.



From: http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/id-3378010/join-tom-hardware-amd-thursday-april-6th/page-2.html

Aspiring techie said:
What do you think is holding Ryzen's clockspeeds back? Compared to Kaby Lake, Ryzen's clockspeeds are somewhat sluggish. Do you think that it's something in the architecture or Global Foundery's 14nm process?

Answer

If you think about it, Ryzen is an absolutely worst-case scenario for clock rates: a brand new architecture, and a brand new process. And still we hit 4 GHz without too much trouble.

I believe we have tremendous clockspeed headroom to take advantage of as we move forward because of this. Lots of improvements to be made. :)

Is this AMD rep correct?

Let's go a bit further.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?293205-Ryzen-OC/page3&

Look at posts 63 - 65 note post 58 nda.

Ryzen 1600x at 4.7 to 5 ghz! I don't know the temps.

Can you fake those results?

My original post asked two questions.

How many ghz for an enjoyable fsx experience? Ted said fsx was fine till he added ftx global. So a 1600 ryzen may be fine for now and let ryzen mature a few months. Swap a few components as Ryzen matures.

Second I asked if ryzen would get better? It may be worth it to go ryzen and grow with it if fsx is acceptable. Is the stuff above encouraging? Is Ryzen really a superior CPU? Will RAM and motherboards improve ryzen support? We already know ryzen is superior multi-threaded.

So yes I am not asking what to do to max fsx today. I am asking for your hopefully correct :-) prediction of the future of ryzen based on your experience with past CPU releases. Will it get a lot better for fsx?

An then there is Vega...

I really appreciate the tech info in this thread. I have learned a lot. Keep educating me!

-Ed-

[napamule]

Future concern: 3D XPoint (Intel). NEWS at 11 (November?). Enjoy the 'hype' while you can.
Chuck B
Napamule

[txnetcop]

Here's how I see AMD Ryzen, if you are of a mindset to grow with it you may end up discouraged, why? They don't have the funds or the talent to take it much further if they want to go head to head with Intel. I lived in Austin until 4 years ago and spent considerable time as a technician with AMD folks while at TechCor, they were able to afford less and less because they were focused on the new Ryzen project. I admit I am not on the cutting edge anymore since retiring but Ryzen has its own issues with gaming on 32-bit and 64-bit platforms in the area of random access memory. Intel has the funds, the talent, and the overall plan for much greater things. AMD will never catch up. However, that does not mean it's a bad idea to buy Ryzen. They are less expensive and perform more than adequately in gaming and above average in creativity arenas. I am impressed with what they have done with the creation of a new type of processor but my guess is that Intel will swamp AMD's boat by the end of the year. They really should have waited for their grand arrival until they had the biggest issues dealt with. By the way, I did finally get Ryzen to work with FTX Global without stutters so don't let my hardware issue stop you from buying it if that is what you really want. All I had to do was make some changes to the UEFI ROM. However, I hope AMD is around for a long, long time. They force Intel to be better and at least somewhat price competitive!
Ted

[txnetcop]

For those you thinking about moving to Ryzen this may help. To be fair it still pretty well sucks on some 32-bit and 64-bit games that it should shine in but give it time. For the price, it's hard to beat, however, Intel got the message and is lowering prices and coming out with a new series of CPUS in November 2017.
Game patches boost performance on Ryzen, showing just what can and can’t be doneOptimization for Ryzen is happening, and it's helping a bit.
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/04/game-patches-boost-performance-on-ryzen-showing-just-what-can-and-cant-be-done/

Ted