"N" number call out not required?

[Daveroo]

I've been watching videos by adventures on the fly,and a guy that the host of the show was interviewing said the there is no FAA rule stating that you must use the "N" number,and that several in the FAA prefer to have pilots do a short descriptor of the aircraft,like blue and white 185.any one say nea to this?

[PhantomTweak]

Well, all I can say is that when I took flight school, and ground school, back in '75, I was taught to give the plane type, and the N number, thus: "Tomahawk 25818..." on you first transmission to a controller. Ground, Tower, who-ever. Like: "Yuma Ground, Tomahawk 25818, ready to taxi to hold-short for run up". From then on, with the same controller, you could abbreviate the info, like: "Roger ground, 818." But then when you switch, say to Tower, first transmission, give the full info.
I am not sure what the regs say any more. I haven't studied on them in a LONG time :)
That's just what I learned, and a long while back. I may be way off-base, though...
Pat☺

[emfrat]

Yes, well, there's one in every school, isn't there - the guy who will not do 'safe' or 'intelligent' because he is terrified his boy-bits will drop off.
And then there are the real pilots, who understand that good communication keeps everyone alive...
MikeW

[Bushpounder]

Well, all I can say is that when I took flight school, and ground school, back in '75, I was taught to give the plane type, and the N number, thus: "Tomahawk 25818..." on you first transmission to a controller. Ground, Tower, who-ever. Like: "Yuma Ground, Tomahawk 25818, ready to taxi to hold-short for run up". From then on, with the same controller, you could abbreviate the info, like: "Roger ground, 818." But then when you switch, say to Tower, first transmission, give the full info.
I am not sure what the regs say any more. I haven't studied on them in a LONG time :)
That's just what I learned, and a long while back. I may be way off-base, though...
Pat☺

This is how we did it as well. Full number, minus the N on initial contact, then last three digits / alphas after that. Same time period as you. Did it that way for 1500 hours, because that is the proper way to communicate. The description Dave is talking about may be from Oshkosh, where they watch for traffic in binoculars, and will call you by colors and type in many cases. That is the exception, and may occur at other massive fly-ins.

Don

[Mach3DS]

We were taught to call up with full number minus the N. Then once the controller abbreviated our number to the aircraft type and last 3 digits we would do the same.

[txnetcop]

It really depends on the Tower controller in Texas but usually you start with aircraft identification and the number and each subsequent transmission has your N number first. FAA regs are here: https://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/libview_normal.aspx?id=17272
Ted

[mikewmac]

We always identified our aircraft type and N number with our first communication with a new ATC facility.

Ironically I watched an Air Disasters episode yesterday where at night a young pilot of a Cherokee only used his N number to communicate to the airport's traffic at an uncontrolled airport that he was holding behind a King Air at one of two runways that crossed at 90 degrees at their centers. Unfortunately the King Air was taking that runway ahead of him for takeoff as a commuter aircraft with 2 pilots and 10 passengers on board was on approach to the other runway.

The pilots of the King Air apparently were neither communicating their actions nor monitoring the communications from other traffic properly. The commuter aircraft pilots were communicating and monitoring traffic properly but apparently due to a cockpit voice signal overriding the young pilots identification that a King Air was ahead of him misunderstood his holding communication of only his N number that they heard to be from the King Air that was actually taking the other runway for takeoff and continued their landing. This led to the commuter aircraft and King Air colliding at the intersection of the runways and 4 pilots and 10 passengers were killed from the collision and the ensuing fire. If the young pilot had stated that Cherokee NXXXXX was holding behind a King Air at runway 4, perhaps the commuter pilots would have heard that, realized that it wasn't from the King air, observed that the King Air was actually taking off and gone around to avoid a terrible tragedy.

[BrittMac]

We were taught to call up with full number minus the N. Then once the controller abbreviated our number to the aircraft type and last 3 digits we would do the same.

This is basically what we do, at least in the BHM area. I've flown down to the coast a bit, and to the ATL area, and it's much the same.
BHM controllers want (some of us went to the tower and met with them) the full N number. They may choose to shorten it. Ex: N7728N will later be N28N (confusing for a new pilot that expects the whole T#).

Now, with ATL controllers, you will use your full # when you check in with them. I can't say that I have had any shorten my number, tbh. They are usually pretty busy and want to be absolutely sure the correct aircraft is responding.

THAT being said, my home airport is also home to a sister Cherokee, 7828N. THIS confuses the crap outta ATC when we are both in the air, so, they are quite careful when we do.

Every region may operate a little differently, as well as every controller may do his/her own thing. Generally, you will check in with like, "Cherokee N7728N, BHM approach". They don't mind dropping the initial N usually. If you read off "7728N", and they come back with "N7728N", that is a hint to use the whole thing in my area.

YMMV from area to area. Go to LiveATC and listen to some traffic. It's a great way to learn about different areas.

[BrittMac]

I've been watching videos by adventures on the fly,and a guy that the host of the show was interviewing said the there is no FAA rule stating that you must use the "N" number,and that several in the FAA prefer to have pilots do a short descriptor of the aircraft,like blue and white 185.any one say nea to this?

I forgot to add this. There is not a whole lot of point to giving a descriptor, unless visual contact is going to happen and they are stupid busy. One example of where they use descriptors is coming into KOSH for the big show. The controller will make a call like, "Blue and White Cessna, rock your wings" to let the aircraft know who the controller is talking to, and also let the aircraft acknowledge it without unnecessary Com traffic.

But, if a controller wants to know something like a description, they will certainly ask. The reason it's not always needed is that most planes won't be within miles of the controller at his screen. Most won't be in a position to see you and won't care what paint you have.

[Daveroo]

rewatched the video and the old guy was talking about while in the pattern at an uncontrolled airport,talking on the local unicom while flying at warm springs idaho...so i guess i cant really even say airport...his point was that people want to be able to see the airplanes around them buy type and color.i can understand what he was saying,but at an ATC controlled airport,or while flight following that might not work.he did say he was with (working for) the FAA..

but the main thing for me was his comment that there are no written rules regarding the call out. i wouldn't have a clue as how to look it up.lol

[olderndirt]

rewatched the video and the old guy was talking about while in the pattern at an uncontrolled airport,talking on the local unicom while flying at warm springs idaho...so i guess i cant really even say airport...his point was that people want to be able to see the airplanes around them buy type and color.i can understand what he was saying,but at an ATC controlled airport,or while flight following that might not work.he did say he was with (working for) the FAA..

but the main thing for me was his comment that there are no written rules regarding the call out. i wouldn't have a clue as how to look it up.lol
Your plane is the radio station and part of your airman certificate is FCC approval to use it.

The FCC requirements are in 47 CFR 87.107 (http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr;rgn=div5;view=text;node=47%3A5.0.1.1.2; idno=47;cc=ecfr#se47.5.87_1107) (not 87.115 as the JO says):
(a) Aircraft station. Identify by one of the following means:
(1) Aircraft radio station call sign.
(2) The type of aircraft followed by the characters of the registration marking (“N” number) of the aircraft, omitting the prefix letter “N.” When communication is initiated by a ground station, an aircraft station may use the type of aircraft followed by the last three characters of the registration marking. Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, an aircraft being moved by maintenance personnel from one location in an airport to another location in that airport may be identified by a station identification consisting of the name of the company owning or operating the aircraft, followed by the word “Maintenance” and additional alphanumeric characters of the licensee's choosing.
(3) The FAA assigned radiotelephony designator of the aircraft operating organization followed by the flight identification number.
(4) An aircraft identification approved by the FAA for use by aircraft stations participating in an organized flying activity of short duration.

[Mach3DS]

Yeah that was my memory leaking...we always used N number on first TX to ATC....

[srgalahad]

I think I've stopped shivering enough to weigh in on this. First, let me start by saying that I was a controller, and ATC instructor, Operations specialist and tower manager over a 30-year career as well as a licensed pilot and ground school instructor. Throughout that time I learned there is a vast difference between "what is done" and "what is right". With a little variance there is one "right" but sloppiness, laziness, lack of knowledge and a dislike for "being formal" make what we practice often look and sound very different.

The correct stuff is outlined (in the USA) in the Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP). Of course that's a pretty big document and who reads the manuals thoroughly anyway? We want to hit the highlights (and, unfortunately, so do instructors so they don't bore or overwhelm students) plus there's always the feeling that 'close enough is pretty good'.

BrittMac, I'll quote you but I bet the comments are pretty typical from everywhere so forgive me if it seems I'm picking on you...


This is basically what we do, at least in the BHM area. I've flown down to the coast a bit, and to the ATL area, and it's much the same.
BHM controllers want ...).
Every region may operate a little differently, as well as every controller may do his/her own thing. Generally, you will check in with like, "Cherokee N7728N, BHM approach". They don't mind dropping the initial N usually. If you read off "7728N", and they come back with "N7728N", that is a hint to use the whole thing in my area.
I looked, but I could only find one AIP. There don't seem to be regional versions. :untroubled: Initially we all try to teach and learn 'by the book' but once taught (and, in this case, licensed) there's a strong desire to develop a personality. This does get passed on and what's the problem? Nothing, until some guy with a briefcase has to investigate because someone else got scared, hurt, or killed. Then we all get a reminder that there is really only one 'correct' way to do and say things.


but the main thing for me was his comment that there are no written rules regarding the call out. i wouldn't have a clue as how to look it up.lol
In response, I call "BS". The rules are described for ATC communications but the same content and format is what pilots expect to hear regardless of location. Of course, people will always search for a convenient justification...

In this case, to answer Dave's question, it is what is laid out in the AIP (GEN 3.7-6 et al) The .pdf can be found here: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/AIP.pdf (see pages 216-217 of 1682 in the .pdf)
4.4.1.1 Radio communications are a critical link in the ATC system. The link can be a strong bond between pilot and controller − or it can be broken with surprising speed and disastrous results. Discussion herein provides basic procedures for new pilots and also highlights safe operating concepts for all pilots.
4.4.3.1 Improper use of call signs can result in pilots executing a clearance intended for another aircraft. Call signs should never be abbreviated on an initial contact or at any time when other aircraft call signs have similar numbers/sounds or identical letters/numbers, (e.g., Cessna 6132F, Cessna 1622F,Baron 123F, Cherokee 7732F, etc.).
4.4.3.2 (in part says) ATC specialists may initiate abbreviated call signs of other aircraft by using the prefix and the last three digits/letters of the aircraft identification after
communications are established. The pilot may use the abbreviated call sign in subsequent contacts with the ATC specialist. When aware of similar/identical call signs, ATC specialists will take action to minimize errors by emphasizing certain numbers/letters, by repeating the entire call sign, repeating the prefix, or by asking pilots to use a different call sign temporarily.
4.4.3.3 Civil aircraft pilots should state the aircraft type, model or manufacturer’s name followed by the digits/letters of the registration number. When the aircraft manufacturer’s name or model is stated, the prefix “N” is dropped.


YMMV from area to area. Go to LiveATC and listen to some traffic. It's a great way to learn about different areas.
We all like to find info on the internet, but remember that it is often what people think they should do, or what is common practice; it may not be right, in spite of it's repeated use. Listen and learn, but vet it against the source before assuming it is right. The use of non-standard identification techniques in Dave's question may likely get a response of: "Well, that's what they do at Oshkosh!" OSH is a very different world - for 10 days. I am willing to bet that a pilot ready for takeoff wouldn't be able to tell if the speck he sees downwind (or worse, on final) is a blue-and-white Cessna or if it is the correct one of four. As a controller I might tell a pilot his traffic is blue (or red, etc.) but that would be part of a more detailed idea of position and only if it was readily identifiable by color and critical.

I'm often accused of being the grammar-police (which is why I got to edit a published novel). Here there's a difference - bad grammar is poor performance, but bad phraseology in the ATC world can actually hurt. I'd be surprised if an accident investigator would take kindly to a defense of: "That's what I learned from YouTube". :mixed-smiley-027:

<class dismissed> :biggrin-new:

[ryapad]

It is arguably better to use and aircraft description on uncontrolled frequencies and CTAF's. That way, other aircraft flying around will be able to tell which aircraft is calling, because they probably can't see your callsign. On controlled frequencies, its probably a better idea to use your full callsign. After a few transmissions, you can chop a few number off if its okay. One time when we were flying out of Lake Hood in N120G, a Cessna 206 N1220G called in. Normally, we say '20G" when we are calling the second time, but while the other aircraft was on freq. we sued our full callsign.

[Daveroo]

ok ive found the video.starts at 22:10 into it.a guy named Steve Nerchee?..he is the pres of the utha back country fliers or something,BUT he is talking about the "back country" and making it better for other pilopts to know whos where,but the comment that i hear thats thrown me is the..theres no faa rule...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN2q01SuX6E

[Daveroo]

BTW,,thank you very much srgalahad!! good info..and to all of you..thanks.

[fsxar177]

Backcountry flying is an entirely different operation.

It is recommended by some as common etiquette in the backcountry to designate yourself by type / color.

- Joseph

[hairyspin]

A fascinating thread. I work in a different industry altogether with its own prescribed procedures and just as many "I do it this way, son" practitioners, lol.

[Victory103]

As military and GA rental flyer, I like reading questions like this on a sim forum which means guys are really trying to learn the correct way of doing things in this hobby. I push LiveATC to the new guys, but as I listen there is slang or just plain laziness from professional pilots that know better. Many want to sound "cool" on the radios. To the 1st post, since day 1 of PPL training I have never used my "N" number.

[johannesl]

According to the AIM the first call needs to contain the name of the facility, your full aircraft identification, your position when on the airport surface (I would suggest when in the air too), and your type of message or request. I don't believe that there is any requirement to say anything at an uncontroled airport. This would be really stupid as you should always give position reports, but the format (N-number or not) is kind of left up to the pilot though shorter is better.

As to Victory103, really, you have NEVER used your N-number? You must never have flown into a towered airport.

[rvn817j]

It's nice to see this kind of interest in real world flying topics on a simulation website. I've flown (and continue to fly) "real world" for more than 40 years and much of it has been in and around uncontrolled airports. Bottom line of radio communication is safety of flight and the technical requirements have grown from that bottom line of safety. Safety of flight encompasses both the issue of collision avoidance and minimizing use of a limited resource (the radio frequency) by one (1) pilot. If you are interested in the technical requirements, you can refer back to a couple of prior replies. Essentially on a first call you do the following: (1) identify who you are calling ("Approach" or "X Airport Traffic"), (2) identify yourself (aircraft type and call sign without "N"), (3) location (usually in relation to the airport you are calling or closest to), and (4) the message you want to communicate (entering downwind for runway "X", over flying the field, etc.). [IF you are "pop up" traffic and contacting "Approach" for the first time number (3) is just "REQUEST". The reason you do it this way is to allow approach to work you into the "flow" of the current work load. Approach will call you back and then you tell them your location, squawk and request...like "5 miles west of your airspace squawking VFR (1200) request radar following through your airspace west to east". Approach will likely give you another squawk code and ask you your destination and to "ident".]

So, getting back to the primary thread discussion "around uncontrolled airports". First, identifying the facility is important because if you are on the wrong frequency someone may let you know. Being on the correct frequency is important! All the safety benefits of communicating are lost if you are not talking to the people flying close by! Second, your type of aircraft is important for relative speed information (a safety of flight issue). Your call sign actually is not all that important, but specifically identifies you if someone needs to talk to you. (For example, when I'm at an uncontrolled airport and can't see someone that called I usually just say the aircraft type at "X" facility and ask them to say their position again.) Location information is VERY important, as well as the message you want to communicate (AND that should usually be your INTENTIONS). (Please note, I never mentioned color of aircraft! Not relevant unless you are assisting someone in locating your aircraft. My aircraft is YELLOW so I can be seen, but I never say that unless someone says "No joy" or something like that.)

The other issue I have with some people at uncontrolled airports is when they make a call and ask "anybody in the area please advise". You should be listening to the facility radio for several moments and anyone using that facility should have made the calls required! When I'm in or around the pattern and I hear someone call in, I respond with a position report which includes the runway I'm using. For example "Airlake Traffic Experimental 817J is midfield downwind Three Zero Full Stop" and sometimes I add "Looking for Traffic" so if someone just called in they get the hint that they should be looking also. Easy.

The intent of uncontrolled airport radio communication is safety of flight, SEE and BE SEEN! It isn't difficult and if done correctly is quick and unobtrusive. Keeping the radio frequency free from unnecessary chatter is also very important.

(I fly a lot of single pilot VFR and I worry about congestion in the air. I don't trust others to always do what is right and supplement radio calls with (1) PCAS (personal collision avoidance system - a small black box from ZAON) and (2) Stratux ADSB showing "traffic".) There are still a lot of things in the air (birds, drones, the occasional Cub or ultralight) that don't have radios or transponders, so you can never relax!)

There are several books, and one or two computer programs, on how to make your radio calls correctly and concisely. I know that controllers appreciate it when you talk to them like a professional. Hope this helps.

P.S. Frequently, when using FSX, I practice my required calls. I'm sure my wife wonders what is wrong with me?

[griphos]

Jay and several prior posters give good information. In relation to the OP's question about what is required at uncontrolled airports, the answer is nothing, with respect to radio traffic. You are not required to have a radio to operate at uncontrolled airports. You are required, by the regs, to fly safely, to see and avoid, and to maintain right of way rules, which are clear and explicit. Using a radio at uncontrolled airports helps you do those things.

I've flown for many years out of a grass airport with lots of experimental and classic traffic. Some of those planes don't have or use radios. Those that do often identify themselves in terms of color, such as "yellow Cub" or "silver Luscombe," which is actually a little bit redundant in both those cases. :-)

The main thing, as Jay has noted, is to communicate clearly where you are and what you are doing and intending to do. So, good radio etiquette at uncontrolled airports means ALWAYS starting with the facility name you are departing or arriving at, and whose traffic you want to communicate with. It is best to repeat that information at the end of the transmission in case people didn't start listening right off the bat (we often miss the first bits of information from communication we weren't expecting). So, something like "Kittie Hill Traffic, Aeronca 86249 (or Yellow Chief) entering left downwind for runway 17, full stop, Kittie Hill." People mostly call a few miles out initially, with altitude and position "over Lake Georgetown at 2000" and then again on downwind, base, and final. Always start with facility and end with it.

You don't have to do anything, but if you do use the radio, you should probably use it in a way other pilots expect, and you had better, for your own safety and that of others, use it in a way that makes your position and activity clear to everyone listening.

Here's a handy guide by the AOPA: http://flash.aopa.org/asf/radiocomm/downloads/a8s1_sample_radio_calls.pdf

It doesn't include Class E airspace -uncontrolled airports - because no radio is required there.