Question for those with Hardware Rudder Pedals

[Flapsfull]

Hello everyone,

I have a question for a problem, I haven't yet found a good workaround for. I own the Saitek rudder pedals and overall
am enjoying the added immersion they bring to flightsimming.

However the only problem is, the conflict with the "autorudder" setting within fsx realism option.I'll try to describe it:


For small/older airplanes like biplanes, cessnas ,pipers and so on, its a no-brainer, I leave the autorudder option off and everything's working as it should,
the rudder pedals provide full rudder authority up to maximum deflection.
----------
However with larger / more advanced aircraft that in reality have yaw dampers the "autorudder off" setting is kind of unrealistic as you
then still have to make rudder inputs in order to fly coordinated turns.(in FSX)

In reality modern transport aircraft do not require this rudder input as one of the functions of the yaw damper is to provide it.
In other words the turns are automatically coordinated.Now being the obvious solution, enabling the autorudder option in the FSX realism settings,
does indeed produce the above mentioned real-world behaviour , e.g. turns are automatically coordinated, but this generates another new problem.

When the autorudder option is set to "on" , the rudder effectiveness is somehow then very limited by FSX (also visible in outside view, even with
full hardware rudder input, the rudder surface deflects much less than with autorudder "off", maybe a third of maximum deflection.

So for those flight phases where you actually would use in the rudder in modern aircraft, e.g. decrabbing the wind correction angle during approach/landing , there is not sufficient
rudder autority to successfully perform a decrab.

Does anybody have an idea or found a way to have it both ways for airliners/advanced aircraft , autocoordinated turns plus enough rudder authority to perform
decrab or crosswind takeoff maneuvres?

As a side note I noticed that default autopilots "Yaw damper" button/mode seems to have little to no influence on this.

Sorry for the long monologue, I just thought I put it in here and maybe someone with hardware rudder pedals and a similar interest in a broad range of aircraft
has found a work-around for this.


Kind regards and thanks,

Oliver

[Penzoil3]

I never use autorudder with pedals. I have found that the yaw damper is built into the aircraft model in most cases.
Sue

[Mach3DS]

Agreed. All of the modern tube liners you're likely flying or GA unless they are the default aircraft are using custom gauges. Most addons that use fsx features will tell you in the startup which of these settings needs turned on or off. I NEVER use autorudder checked in any situation.

[roger-wilco-66]

Same here. I never use auto-rudder.


Cheers,
Mark

[scotth6]

Same. I have never used auto rudder. I know of a few airliner models that say in the manual to leave autorudder unchecked. I always wondered why they bothered to say this, and now I know.

Cheers,

[spokes2112]

I use a joystick w/twist rudder cuz I am handicapped but what I did to ease the pain is have a lua script (FSUIPC registered required) running at all times. When gear goes up Autocoord is engaged, when gear goes down it is disengaged. Autocoord and Yaw Damper are also able to be overridden manually by the R & Y keys respectively. If interested in this script PM me.

[Flapsfull]

Hi,

thank you all for your answers.While I agree that some of the more advanced addons feature their own custom developed yaw damper,
with some other addons it doesn't seem to work, for example the Qualitywings 757 , the CS 707 captain or the very nice freeware Falcon 50 that is being
re-done for FSX/P3D by some talented SOH members.

Well all these I'm experiencing uncoordinated turns / uncentered ball during aileron-only turns with the autorudder option set to off , thats why I posted this thread.

@Spokes2112:

Thanks for the kind offer, right now, I'm still on the unregistered Version of FSUIPC, but since this is one the things that I'll probably
buy next, I would take you up on it and will PM you later on.

Thanks again all & kind regards,


Oliver

[Penzoil3]

"Well all these I'm experiencing uncoordinated turns / uncentered ball during aileron-only turns with the autorudder option set to off"
That's why you have rudder pedals, use them, step on the ball. :a1310:

[COBS]

Regards turns ,
I have CH rudder pedals , but very rarely use them , I use them to taxi , do barrel rolls , knife edges , and when side slipping .
Auto rudder is always Off .

I fly a military aircraft fitted with a HUD .
For turns , I apply any required bank , then pull the stick to exactly center the ball .

For example if I want a rapid high rate level turn , I place the HUD Velocity Vector on the horizon bar and keep it there very accurately ,
roll into a 70 degree bank pulling on the joy stick to maintain Velocity Vector precisely on Horizon bar ,
the ball will remain exactly centered , VSI will indicate zero ( nil climb or descent ) ,
I can hold this configuration for several complete turn circles , and throughout the complete process will NOT have gained or
lost even 10' of altitude .
It is absolutely precise .

Cheers
Karol

[vortex]

Regards turns ,
I have CH rudder pedals , but very rarely use them , I use them to taxi , do barrel rolls , knife edges , and when side slipping .
Auto rudder is always Off .

I fly a military aircraft fitted with a HUD .
For turns , I apply any required bank , then pull the stick to exactly center the ball.

I'm really struggling to see how you can possibly adjust balance (yaw) by making a pitch input! The out-of-balance problem in turns is caused by the different amounts of drag from the individual ailerons producing adverse yaw. You either don't get any yaw if you've got some form of auto-coordination facility or you have to correct with pedals.

[COBS]

I'm really struggling to see how you can possibly adjust balance (yaw) by making a pitch input! The out-of-balance problem in turns is caused by the different amounts of drag from the individual ailerons producing adverse yaw. You either don't get any yaw if you've got some form of auto-coordination facility or you have to correct with pedals.

The following part is wrong , it is not relevant to adverse yaw ,
" The out-of-balance problem in turns is caused by the different amounts of drag from the individual ailerons producing adverse yaw. "

What you are dealing with in a turn is your lift vector .

To describe this , imagine that you are behind your aircraft flying in level flight , then imagine a LIFT arrow pointing upwards from your fuselage (arrow is at right angles to the wings) ,
That lift arrow has a value which is usually represented by the length of the arrow , the value is the lift being generated by the aircraft (mainly by the wings) .
The amount of lift is the same as the weight of the aircraft . In text books you will see the Lift arrow above the aircraft and a Weight arrow below pointing down.
Now if Lift = Weight the aircraft will remain in level flight (ie; nil climb or descent) .

You always bank to turn , that results in the lift vector being tilted ( it forms a diagonal arrow)
That diagonal lift arrow is resolved into two components ,
-Vertical = Lift component
-Horizontal = turning (yaw) component
the vertical component is now less than the Weight arrow resulting in a descent , actually it is a SLIP in the direction of the turn .

If you now apply stick back pressure you will be increasing the aircraft lift in the direction of the diagonal lift arrow , this results in an increase
in the Vertical component and if done correctly will equal the weight value , ie; the SLIP will be removed , the ball will be centered , and in this
case the aircraft will maintain it's altitude (level flight) .

You can see in the above example that in banked flight a measured pull on the stick is not inducing a climb , instead it is increasing the diagonal lift component .

Sorry that the above is a bit complex and probably poorly explained .

Probably the best way about this is to do a flight , do not touch your rudder pedals .
Bank you aircraft a little , then pull the stick observing the turn ball and apply sufficient pull to center the ball , the stick force applied is that
necessary to keep the ball centered , there you have balance flight , ie NIL SLIP or SKID .

This process works in all turn cases for , level flight , descending flight or climbing flight .

Cheers
Karol

[Mach3DS]

Ummm....Adverse yaw is created due to the outside (upward) wing traveling faster in the turn than the inside wing. It travels faster and therefore create more lift than the inside wing and therefore more induced drag. This causes the yaw which adversely affects the balance of flight. Hence the name. In swept wing aircraft this can be greatly enhanced. Called.Dutch roll it swings side the onside. Hence yaw dampers to reduce Dutch roll caused by adverse yaw.

[vortex]

The following part is wrong , it is not relevant to adverse yaw ,
" The out-of-balance problem in turns is caused by the different amounts of drag from the individual ailerons producing adverse yaw. "

You always bank to turn , that results in the lift vector being tilted ( it forms a diagonal arrow)
That diagonal lift arrow is resolved into two components ,
-Vertical = Lift component
-Horizontal = turning (yaw) component
the vertical component is now less than the Weight arrow resulting in a descent , actually it is a SLIP in the direction of the turn .

If you now apply stick back pressure you will be increasing the aircraft lift in the direction of the diagonal lift arrow , this results in an increase
in the Vertical component and if done correctly will equal the weight value , ie; the SLIP will be removed , the ball will be centered , and in this
case the aircraft will maintain it's altitude (level flight) .

Sorry but that's wrong. In a turn, the horizontal component of the lift vector does not cause yaw. Yaw is a secondary effect of rolling into the turn. To paraphrase from my old principles of flight notes:

In a turn, the down-going aileron (on the high, outboard wing) will increase the local coefficient of lift (CL), and the induced drag changes in proportion to CL squared. The down-going aileron will therefore experience a large increase in CL and induced drag. The up-going aileron will experience a large decrease in CL and induced drag. Whilst there will be an increase in the parasite drag on the up-going aileron, it's not as nearly as large as the increase in the induced drag on the down-going aileron. This extra drag on the outboard wing is what produces adverse yaw in the opposite direction to the turn.

You're correct that you do need some backpressure on the controls in a turn (roughly proportional to the amount of bank applied) to compensate for the loss of the vertical component of lift and so maintain height but that doesn't affect the aircraft in yaw. Trust me on this one - I was a professional pilot and flying instructor for over 30 years before I retired in 2012.