Windows 10 Update and 3D Studio Max 2015 Train Wreck

[gman5250]

I thought I post this up with two objectives in mind. First to seek for any clues from other members who have experience with Windows 10 and 3DS Max, and secondly to put up a be advised to those who may be considering Windows 10.

Preface

I spent nearly four weeks offline recently, and found that my workflow was extremely productive without the various distractions and updates that find their way in via the information superhighway. I primarily worked in 3DS Max, Photoshop, Quixel and the various peripherals associated with aircraft and scenery design.

I’ll preface the remainder of this post by confirming that my Autodesk, Windows and Adobe platforms are completely up to date, along with my NVIDIA drivers. I’ve updated P3D and its SDK to 3.4.9.18400 which actually is working quite well, so if I can’t work…I can, at the very least, do a bit of flying.

I've checked all of the various areas that one would look for problems with no outstanding anomalies. Every thing is within parameters and operating in the green.
I’ve also coded the MS memory leak “fix” into Win10, which has a penchant for removing the leak fix…with each new boot.

The Issue

When I went back on line two weeks ago, Windows sprinted for the latest batch of updates to bring itself into full realization of it's digital potential.

From the first post update re-boot which, by the way, MS gave me no option to refuse, the OS descended into a series of memory leaks that have reduce my system to a steaming POS.

The main bug lies with a “known” issue with Max…well it’s been known for quite some time actually with no fixes in the offing.
I am experiencing a severe memory leak that leaves Max 2015 severely low on resources after only a few minutes of poly bending and animating. Max slowly grinds to a complete halt, requiring a few dozen complete system re-boots a day, just to get any work done. The various memory clean-up scripts written for Max have no effect or success in cleaning up the memory problem.

At this point I’m working with a former member of this forum, searching for a fix but I thought I’d post up here hoping that one or our resident Max gurus may have some experience with repairing the bug.

I’d very much like to get back to actually being productive, rather than torturing my box with continual and lengthy re-boots that wreak havoc on my Local drive.

[Jafo]

Simple [ish] fix...uninstall the Windows updates that caused the problem....like all of them since you were running 'in the green' [you should still be able to]...and if you really need the system to remain stable...disconnect it from the internet. Get yourself an el-cheapo that becomes your net mule...;)

[hairyspin]

'Fraid I'm on a much earlier Max version, but are there no answers on Autodesk's support forum? This software costs thousands, so make 'em work for their money. It's not as if you're running a dinosaur version like mine.

[AussieMan]

Gordon, not sure if it will help you but after something like 30 system updates of Windows 10 leaving an empty folder on my computer each time I decided to bite the bullet and do a clean install of W10. Since then I only get an minor update of drivers and security files every so often (actually haven't had one now for 2 months).

I don't know your drive structure but I have something like 7.5TB of space on 5 hard drives. My C\. drive is reserved for system related stuff only and the others reserved for my FS, Train Sim, painting and photography stuff.

I know it probably be a pain in the a**e but have you thought of doing something similar? That way you could have more control over Windows updates and maybe stop the memory leaks.

[gman5250]

Gordon, not sure if it will help you but after something like 30 system updates of Windows 10 leaving an empty folder on my computer each time I decided to bite the bullet and do a clean install of W10. Since then I only get an minor update of drivers and security files every so often (actually haven't had one now for 2 months).

I don't know your drive structure but I have something like 7.5TB of space on 5 hard drives. My C\. drive is reserved for system related stuff only and the others reserved for my FS, Train Sim, painting and photography stuff.

I know it probably be a pain in the a**e but have you thought of doing something similar? That way you could have more control over Windows updates and maybe stop the memory leaks.

PITA...definitely, but I do have about 8 TB to mess about with, on three drives.

I've looked at your option which seems most logical, but I'm concerned about the aggressive nature of the Windows update process, which could worm it's way back in.

What seems most sensible would be to back up all of my data on my external drive (which I do weekly anyway), buy a new...1 TB SSD, then start with a clean install of either Win7 or Win10. I would leave the computer offline and being tasked for only design work, R&D and beta testing. This option would require a second box for flying and being online.

I do have a second box now suitable for the task, but I would really rather build a new dedicated computer mule/flight sim box with a bit more crunching power. I could task the GTX780 card to the new box and pump up my big box with a GTX1080.

I can probably make that happen when the house sells. In the meantime, I'll keep looking for a fix to the immediate glitch.

[spatialpro]

I can't help you with this issue, but I'd just like to thank you enormously for posting about it. I'm a 3DS Max 2015 FS designer and I've occasionally thought about upgrading to Win 10 from Win 7... not now!

[hairyspin]

I don't know if this will help, but Max 2016 seems to have a similar problem with some users. One reported a change of video driver in Max cured this:–

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/3ds-max-forum/memory-leak-for-3ds-max-2016/m-p/6018247#M110885

[Bjoern]

No issues with Win 10 x64 (always up to date) and Max 2015 x64 here.
Apart from the occasional crash after one texture export from GIMP too many (PNG library error), but that one's fairly understandable.

But I'm generally not working with high poly models in the first place.

Have you tried keeping your stack size down?

[MDIvey]

Sorry to hear of your troubles Gordon. Thanks for Heads Up. Using MAX2010 here I and I dithered on whether or not to update my main work machine to Win10 and eventually chose not to for precisely this reason. Glad I didn't. Hope you find a way round the problem without wasting too much time.

Matt

[gman5250]

Hairyspin:
"I don't know if this will help, but Max 2016 seems to have a similar problem with some users. One reported a change of video driver in Max cured this:"




I'll give that one a look.

I recall an article some months back that touched on driver updates. As I recall, the article addressed the issue that GMAX and 3DS Max working with FSX and P3D SDK run into an issue with older drivers. It was suggested that the older "generation" drivers were not supported in the SDK.

I was able to restore GMAX go partial functionality in Win10, but have since begun to translate my models i.e. the Milton Shupe F7F into Max format. The idea was that Max would be updated, while GMAX would not.

In the big picture, my NVIDIA drivers in P3D/FSX/Win10 are working extremely well. When I can finally export a beta model into the actual simulator, things hum along very nicely. Currently flying the F2A buffalo while building the VC...it's a joy and the smoothest I've every seen. I have to limit the FPS at 60, even with Matt's high poly radial in his exquisite exterior model...and my increasingly detailed VC.

[gman5250]

No issues with Win 10 x64 (always up to date) and Max 2015 x64 here.
Apart from the occasional crash after one texture export from GIMP too many (PNG library error), but that one's fairly understandable.

But I'm generally not working with high poly models in the first place.

Have you tried keeping your stack size down?

I've looked at that.

Today I'm modeling the emergency hand pump for the F2A Buffalo as a separate model to merge into the basic VC. This should be a low stack item with a single texture sheet. I'll see if I run into the leak with the low demand modeling.

Typically I'm working in the VC which consists of the formers and ribs "cage" and the usual other bits that accumulate as the model is developed. This is a much lower demand model than the "interior" model that requires the fuselage, canopy and other necessary bits.

I usually hit the crash when I've edited the basic VC model and merged it into my interior model. Post update, this requires a memory wipe via scripts inside Max, or a complete system re-boot. Prior to the last update I was smashing some huge files like my KRNO airport model or the F7F VC without any memory issues at all.

I did gain some performance when I de-tuned Max to lower performance, graphics and rendering...but that's a Band-aid, not a cure.

[gman5250]

Just a follow on Bjoern's comment regarding stack size.

Today, I modeled an emergency hydraulic hand pump for the F2A Buffalo. It was a fairly basic model, low poly compared to a full VC model. The session ran a few hours, working side by side with Photoshop CS6. I got through the whole session without a memory leak lockup.

So...I opened up the VC interior model and she locked up with in a few moves after I had merged the pump model.

It looks like stack memory allocation may have seen some alterations in the new Win10 update. For some reason it has a conflict with my system, although others are using Win10 and Max 2015 64 with no issues at all.

For the short term, and hoping that MS will unravel the bug, I can work with compartmentalized modeling while constructing my more complex airplane models. I have done that all along with my airports i.e. KRNO, which required many layers of modeling to create the composite. The runway lighting alone hit the poly count speed limit and required four separate files.

Just to reiterate...my models did not have this issue prior to the update, so stack memory allocation did not trigger a similar memory pile up.

Thinking out loud, but thought I'd share that info here.

[hairyspin]

Also thinking aloud, that doesn't sound like the Max memory leak reported elsewhere when Max would sit swallowing RAM without the user doing a thing! You can work for hours without issue but open another model and it crunches? Check how many materials your problem scene has: I've had models built using merged parts where the material count went through the roof and only wireframe view could handle them. Merging had led to huge numbers of duplicated materials.


Just a thought.

[gman5250]

Also thinking aloud, that doesn't sound like the Max memory leak reported elsewhere when Max would sit swallowing RAM without the user doing a thing! You can work for hours without issue but open another model and it crunches? Check how many materials your problem scene has: I've had models built using merged parts where the material count went through the roof and only wireframe view could handle them. Merging had led to huge numbers of duplicated materials.


Just a thought.

I've thought the same thing. I'll give that a look.

I'll try the F7F VC, which has more polys than the Buffalo but no materials assigned yet. If I don't get the crash in there it might well be materials related.
Interesting that this only popped up post update though. The Buffalo VC was fine for the three weeks I worked offline after my move.

Real head scratcher....

[Bjoern]

I bet you already tried merging your model into a new, empty scene, didn't you?

This sometimes fixes quirks in model files.

[gman5250]

I bet you already tried merging your model into a new, empty scene, didn't you?

This sometimes fixes quirks in model files.

I usually start my session by merging the file, rather than opening an existing.

As a control experiment, I opened a fresh boot of Max, merged the internal VC into a "new" file and opened the materials editor. No textures in the editor, but the UVW maps were still active on the merged model. I removed the UVW mapping using the tools drop down and saved the file out under a new name.

I merged that file into a new clean page...no UVW...no materials and saved that out.

I did gain some memory performance in both...but will eventually hit the leak wall and seize up as before. It did take quite a bit longer though.

The good news is that I can get quite a bit of work done before I hit the wall, so I will say it's an improvement. :encouragement:

[hairyspin]

Here's how the materials can get out of hand.

I started with a new, blank scene in Max 2008 and merged a selection of objects from my current project. There's one material on the model's geometry called Harlequin which I use when visually selecting polys for mapping. After this merge there's a Harlequin material in the scene together with the merged objects:–


http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll173/hairyspin/Merge01_zpsksoxlswl.jpg



Then I merged a different selection of objects into this new scene and got another multi-material with a different name, applied to the second selection. All these objects had Harlequin applied in the original model, but now they have Material #25 applied instead!


http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll173/hairyspin/Merge02_zps4pcymeou.jpg




Material #25 is in fact exactly the same as Harlequin but Max treats them as different and allocates memory and resources to deal with this unnecessary duplicate.

This happens when objects being merged share the same material as objects already in the scene and you just hit "Return" when Max tells you this. The default in Max is for it to rename the material for the objects you're merging to the scene. This is not good.


http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll173/hairyspin/Merge03_zpscdcflupx.jpg



Once this happens a number of times your materials may have a whole raft of duplicates and the more materials in your scene the quicker the duplicates stack up. They certainly caused a lot of bother when it happened to me.</return></return></return>

[gman5250]

Here's how the materials can get out of hand.

I started with a new, blank scene in Max 2008 and merged a selection of objects from my current project. There's one material on the model's geometry called Harlequin which I use when visually selecting polys for mapping. After this merge there's a Harlequin material in the scene together with the merged objects:–


http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll173/hairyspin/Merge01_zpsksoxlswl.jpg



Then I merged a different selection of objects into this new scene and got another multi-material with a different name, applied to the second selection. All these objects had Harlequin applied in the original model, but now they have Material #25 applied instead!


http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll173/hairyspin/Merge02_zps4pcymeou.jpg




Material #25 is in fact exactly the same as Harlequin but Max treats them as different and allocates memory and resources to deal with this unnecessary duplicate.

This happens when objects being merged share the same material as objects already in the scene and you just hit <Return> <return> <return> <return> when Max tells you this. The default in Max is for it to rename the material for the objects you're merging to the scene. This is not good.


http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll173/hairyspin/Merge03_zpscdcflupx.jpg



Once this happens a number of times your materials may have a whole raft of duplicates and the more materials in your scene the quicker the duplicates stack up. They certainly caused a lot of bother when it happened to me.</return></return></return>

Ran a scan and on had one duplicate.

My typical work flow uses one materials palette with materials that I update as I add UVW bits. Example, cockpit structure texture begins with the basic seat base and instrument boxes. If I add a strut or brace, I break out the UVW that best suits the design and add that to the existing layer. I export the new UVW map as a template and overlay that on my texture sheet. The sheet fills out over time, but the name never changes.

I avoid the merge scene material option like herpes. Only use existing scene material and update the original texture, bump or spec that I've tweaked.

I try to limit my use of texture sheets to 24 max...the number of available slots in a single materials editor instance.

If I do merge a material it is only when I have built a small part with a dedicated texture sheet that is not in the parent model that I save out for conversion in MCX.

This is turning into a very informative thread...thank you all gentlemen...:very_drunk:

[gman5250]

I've been working with the suggestions from everyone. I'm seeing improvements, for sure and will integrate these into my workflow.

Tom, I've created a UVW cleared interior model of the F2A. I'll work with that model today...no textures...and see how Max behaves. The textured version of this file has 22 individual textures in the materials editor. Artwork sheets are 2048x2048, except for the usual glass textures etc. which are small guys.

At the same time, I've still got some general oddities since the questionable Win10 update.
When I boot into Win10, I get the usual prompts that take me to my desk top. During boot sequence, desk top appears then goes to black screen for the (long) duration of the full boot. Prior to the update, I would see the desk top but hear the C:drive buzzing and humming through the boot.

BTW...C:drive is standard spinning 2 TB HD. It's clean and shows 0 fragmented.
SSD is reserved for P3D, while FSX SE lives on the spinner.

Once I get through boot things are fine until I open Max. I get the usual Max boot splash screen but a second instance of the program begins to run. This is confirmed in my task manager and processes. (The little secondary menu in the attached).

https://c8.staticflickr.com/6/5195/30232565095_f5d1749b9b_o.jpg

If I end the task for the anomalous Max window, the program runs fine...until I hit the eventual memory leak crash.

Thoughts welcomed on this one. lol

[roger-wilco-66]

The black out during boot up seems a bit suspicious to me. Maybe there's a glitch in the video driver setup? From the 3dsmax side, you could try to switch from the Nitrous driver to the legacy D3D and see what happens. If you can't access the video config from within 3dsmax you can use the external application "change graphics mode" in the 3dsmax folder.

Forgive me a few simple questions, just to have a base line:

Did you install 3dsmax within the UAC structure (c:\programs) ?
Did you update Win10 from Win7/8 or do a fresh installation?
Is it up to date regarding SP / Hotfixes?

I also gather on the net that the Win10 dotnet / c++ libraries are different and can cause problems for all sorts of older applications which can not be circumvented by running in compatibility modes etc.

This thread is quite interesting.
I'm in the process of redesigning my system and switching to Win10, with 3dsmax 2016. There are a few road blocks to be solved, one of them is getting SBuilderX 64 to work und Win10. That one could be solved already by a work around. But a stable 3dsmax is also a main goal of course.


Cheers,
Mark

[gman5250]

The black out during boot up seems a bit suspicious to me. Maybe there's a glitch in the video driver setup? From the 3dsmax side, you could try to switch from the Nitrous driver to the legacy D3D and see what happens. If you can't access the video config from within 3dsmax you can use the external application "change graphics mode" in the 3dsmax folder.

Forgive me a few simple questions, just to have a base line:

Did you install 3dsmax within the UAC structure (c:\programs) ?
Did you update Win10 from Win7/8 or do a fresh installation?
Is it up to date regarding SP / Hotfixes?

I also gather on the net that the Win10 dotnet / c++ libraries are different and can cause problems for all sorts of older applications which can not be circumvented by running in compatibility modes etc.

This thread is quite interesting.
I'm in the process of redesigning my system and switching to Win10, with 3dsmax 2016. There are a few road blocks to be solved, one of them is getting SBuilderX 64 to work und Win10. That one could be solved already by a work around. But a stable 3dsmax is also a main goal of course.


Cheers,
Mark

It's suspect to me too Mark.

To answer your questions.

Max is installed to the main c:drive and observing all of the Autodesk default protocols.
I built this box with Windows 7, and allowed the Win10 upgrade offer.
Win10 has been constantly updating since I allowed the upgrade a few months ago. I haven't added any external hotfixes...only allowed updates. Always with fingers crossed, standing on one foot and facing east on the second day of the month when the church bells ring. :cower:


BTW: I have SBuilderX 64 working in Win10 bit it is as cranky as a two dollar w**re.

[Jafo]

It's suspect to me too Mark.

...only allowed updates. Always with fingers crossed, standing on one foot and facing east on the second day of the month when the church bells ring. :cower:




I've heard tell that won't be enough...;)

[wombat666]

http://blog.ultimateoutsider.com/2015/08/using-gwx-stopper-to-permanently-remove.html

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4G8xsNLvAdw/Vp1L9JTicEI/AAAAAAAACWw/XihZ-8P7Uww/s640/GWX%2BCP%2B1_7_1%2BOnly.png

I guess you might have come across this really useful little widget but it does exactly what it says on the tin.
Needless to say I'm stubbornly running W7.

[gman5250]

http://blog.ultimateoutsider.com/2015/08/using-gwx-stopper-to-permanently-remove.html

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4G8xsNLvAdw/Vp1L9JTicEI/AAAAAAAACWw/XihZ-8P7Uww/s640/GWX%2BCP%2B1_7_1%2BOnly.png

I guess you might have come across this really useful little widget but it does exactly what it says on the tin.
Needless to say I'm stubbornly running W7.

With all of the rumors and stories running wild at the time of the original offer and update, I installed that guy at the suggestion of a friend/techie.
It was shortly after I enabled GWX that MS changed my "Shut Down" button to not allow me to turn the computer off without ticking the "Update and Shut Down" button.

Mine:

https://c3.staticflickr.com/6/5569/29944364930_9ab2cb4c79_o.jpg

I could swear I hear muffled giggling each time MS comes to re-arrange my digital feng shui...now I get it. :encouragement:

[AussieMan]

Maybe I have been lucky as I haven't installed any of that rubbish on my computer. And NOBODY has control of my start/shutdown button but little ol' me.

I did a clean install of W10 Pro 64 bit and have not had any forced upgrades. I even have the choice to uninstall unwanted updates.

[Penzoil3]

Ok, here's how to control W-10 updates. Found it- takes a little work to do, but you can control the beast.
Sue
www.thewindowsclub.com/make-windows-10-notify-you-before-downloading-or-installing-windows-updates (http://www.thewindowsclub.com/make-windows-10-notify-you-before-downloading-or-installing-windows-updates)

[gman5250]

Ok, here's how to control W-10 updates. Found it- takes a little work to do, but you can control the beast.
Sue
www.thewindowsclub.com/make-windows-10-notify-you-before-downloading-or-installing-windows-updates (http://www.thewindowsclub.com/make-windows-10-notify-you-before-downloading-or-installing-windows-updates)

Thanks Sue...I'll give that a look too.

If I can control the beast and be productive I'll be satisfied. I'm not really a Win10 "Basher", I actually quite like the program when it simply functions as intended. I'm critical of the MS policy that gives them Carte Blanch to come in and start mucking about in my workspace. But...I agreed to let them do it so it is incumbent upon me to accept responsibility for accepting those terms.

[gman5250]

Maybe I have been lucky as I haven't installed any of that rubbish on my computer. And NOBODY has control of my start/shutdown button but little ol' me.

I did a clean install of W10 Pro 64 bit and have not had any forced upgrades. I even have the choice to uninstall unwanted updates.

Hey Pat...you got an extra room? I'll pack up all my stuff and move down to your place. :very_drunk:

[AussieMan]

Wish I did have one mate.

[gman5250]

Update and follow up.

I emphasize that I am not MS bashing here, but sharing a unique situation on my unique system, while attempting to pass my experience forward to others who push the performance envelope to it's upper threshold.

I've worked with all of the fixes and suggestions and have thinned out the variables.
I'll share what I found.


Pre-update:
My workflow only required opening 3DS Max 2015 at the beginning of my work day. I left the program open all day long, working with multiple high poly and high texture load configurations. I ran Photoshop CS6 concurrent along with MCX. My desktop was configured in such a way that allowed me to work between programs seamlessly. My work day is typically 16 hours minimum. I never had memory crashes pre-update.

Post Update:
The texture loading issue looked like a possible until I went to a model that I have not worked on for a few weeks.
The last time I worked with the file was pre-update, and I had no issues at all. Yesterday, I opened the file and Max locked up immediately, forcing a hard shut down with task manager and a system re-boot. I tried another file that I have not touched for a number of weeks. Same result.

In another case, I did a small edit in Max to my working interior.mdl file for the F2A Buffalo. This is my full textured, mapped and ready to export file. Max became sluggish, but allowed the export. I took the model into MCX to do the export for the simulator working .mdl file. That went fine and I placed the interior.mdl file in the sim.

Upon opening Prepar3D I was able to initiate the program and attempt to load a saved flight. The sim began to boot the flight and went to a loaded scenario with the sound and ambient noise of that particular flight audible...but only black screen. I gave the sim adequate time to boot in, but never went past black screen.

My take away was that system resources were maxed out. I checked task manager and processes...all of my assets were operating within the green with plenty of HP available for the P3D to do it's thing.
It seems that there is a larger issue than simply a Max/Windows10 conflict.

At this point I'm experiencing memory saturation even in basic Max models with no UVW mapping or textures applied. This happens within minutes of opening the program.

I'm slowly grinding to a lockup and haven't been able to isolate out any fix. I've taken into account the possibility of a security breach, but find it unlikely that I would be compromised at exactly the same moment of the upgrade.

Also I've had numerous intrusions where the system bogs down while I'm working in Photoshop...not Max, or maybe in the sim. In either case the HD goes berserk, buzzing and humming while things freeze up. I go to my resources map and C:drive is using 100% available resources. The last time this happened, I had yet another Win10 update, resulting in further degradation of my system performance.

Looks like my only alternative is to bite the bullet and do a clean re-install of Windows and all of my programs. I do this with great hesitation due to the fact that it will consume many, many hours of my time.
I have already lost two years of hard work to another, previous update debacle...now I'm going to endure this Bravo Sierra...again.

Am I happy??? No I'm not happy. I'm fricking pissed off and to be honest I'm in baseball bat, leg breakin' mode.

Hopefully this data will help others avoid any similar occasion on their own OS.

[Mach3DS]

Update and follow up.

I emphasize that I am not MS bashing here, but sharing a unique situation on my unique system, while attempting to pass my experience forward to others who push the performance envelope to it's upper threshold.

I've worked with all of the fixes and suggestions and have thinned out the variables.
I'll share what I found.


Pre-update:
My workflow only required opening 3DS Max 2015 at the beginning of my work day. I left the program open all day long, working with multiple high poly and high texture load configurations. I ran Photoshop CS6 concurrent along with MCX. My desktop was configured in such a way that allowed me to work between programs seamlessly. My work day is typically 16 hours minimum. I never had memory crashes pre-update.

Post Update:
The texture loading issue looked like a possible until I went to a model that I have not worked on for a few weeks.
The last time I worked with the file was pre-update and I had no issues at all. I opened the file and Max locked up immediately, forcing a hard shut down with task manager and a system re-boot. I tried another file that I have not touched for a number of weeks. Same result.

In another case, I did a small edit in Max to my working interior.mdl file for the F2A Buffalo. This is my full textured, mapped and ready to export file. Max became sluggish, but allowed the export. I took the model into MCX to do the export for the simulator working .mdl file. That went fine and I placed the interior.mdl file in the sim.

Upon opening Prepar3D I was able to initiate the program and attempt to load a saved flight. The sim began to boot the flight and went to a loaded scenario with the sound and ambient noise of that particular flight audible...but only black screen. I gave the sim adequate time to boot in, but never went past black screen.

My take away was that system resources were maxed out. I checked task manager and processes...all of my assets were operating within the green with plenty of HP available for the P3D to do it's thing.
It seems that there is a larger issue than simply a Max/Windows10 conflict.

At this point I'm experiencing memory saturation even in basic Max models with no UVW mapping or textures applied. This happens within minutes of opening the program.

I'm slowly grinding to a lockup and haven't been able to isolate out any fix.

Also I've had numerous intrusions where the system bogs down while I'm working in Photoshop...not Max, or maybe in the sim. In either case the HD goes berserk, buzzing and humming while things freeze up. I go to my resources map and C:drive is using 100% available resources. The last time this happened, I had yet another Win10 update, resulting in further degradation of my system performance.

Looks like my only alternative is to bite the bullet and do a clean re-install of Windows and all of my programs. I do this with great hesitation due to the fact that it will consume many, many hours of my time.
I have already lost two years of hard work to another, previous update debacle...now I'm going to endure this Bravo Sierra...again.

Am I happy??? No I'm not happy. I'm fricking pissed off and to be honest I'm in baseball bat, leg breakin' mode.

Hopefully this data will help others avoid any similar occasion on their own OS.


GMAN....before you commit to that. I had something similar once...I needed to update some firmware on my MB. Any chance you might need the same same thing?

[gman5250]

GMAN....before you commit to that. I had something similar once...I needed to update some firmware on my MB. Any chance you might need the same same thing?

I'll give that a look Rick, bit the timing seems unlikely. I won't be doing the re-install for two or three days yet. We have 80-100 MPH wind coming tonight/tomorrow with 30 foot waves. I'll wait for the storm to quiet down before I attempt any big mods to the OS.

[Mach3DS]

Roger that Gordon. Im also in the PNW...WA. so we're starting to get some wind and rain up here today...supposed to hit tonight anso tomorrow...all the best!

[gman5250]

As of the last re-boot...just now. Multiple attempts....

Boots to desktop...icons and task bar are active...goes to black screen for a few minutes...desktop comes back up...icons and taskbar are now DOA...no response to mouse roll over.
I use the keyboard to open any menu i.e. calculator...once the menu opens the icons and task bar go live again and stay that way as long as the menu remains open.
I close the menu...desktop icons and taskbar go flat line.

Looks like the wings are folding and she's getting ready to auger in....:banghead:

The good news...The cutsie little Google pop up ads are faithfully popping up (thankfully, not on this forum) and presenting for my consumption, every fricking addon I have perused over the course of the last week. Every...exact...one.

Well, at least that works.....

[roger-wilco-66]

That doesn't look good. Did you check the event logging? I'm sure you did. Maybe there's a hint. The desktop blacking out for such a long duration is definitely not normal.

Further, do you notice a lot of disc activity prior to the other instabilities?

Reason for the question is Photoshop (I work with the latest version). It seems that 16 gb RAM is not enough anymore if you work with it all day, parallel to other power applications. At some point it takes such a huge chunk of memory that the systems starts to allocate memory to the pagefile.sys, which bogs the the system down due to all that swapping. Eventually this can lead to time outs and instabilities.

Might not apply to your case, but I thought I throw this in anyhow.


Cheers,
Mark

[hairyspin]

Back before I moved to Win 10 my trusty Win7 install started wading through tar with resources heavily used despite my not doing anything. It was a Google process bogging down in the background and once killed from the Startup list Win 7 was its normal sprightly self and I forgot about it. Have a look for background garbage, automatic update searching and suchlike...

Shift + Restart gets you to menu for Safe Mode and other diagnostics etc

[gman5250]

That doesn't look good. Did you check the event logging? I'm sure you did. Maybe there's a hint. The desktop blacking out for such a long duration is definitely not normal.

Further, do you notice a lot of disc activity prior to the other instabilities?

Reason for the question is Photoshop (I work with the latest version). It seems that 16 gb RAM is not enough anymore if you work with it all day, parallel to other power applications. At some point it takes such a huge chunk of memory that the systems starts to allocate memory to the pagefile.sys, which bogs the the system down due to all that swapping. Eventually this can lead to time outs and instabilities.

Might not apply to your case, but I thought I throw this in anyhow.


Cheers,
Mark

Thanks Mark,

Yeah I check event logging, but nothing stands out. I get different anomalies on different sessions, but there is no one thing that is a common denominator.

Photoshop CS6 doesn't seem to be the culprit, but it does need to be maintained during long sessions. I routinely clear the memory using the tools inside Photoshop. Also, I run into the memory leak in Max even when Photoshop has not been booted.

Disc activity:
Yep...I get these periods where the disc goes ballistic, but not timed to or associated with any particular event. It just takes off on its own and goes to 100% usage. I usually open up the task manager/performance and watch the graphs. Only C:drive...not CPU or the others. They remain stable. I nave noted that on a few occasions I have had an update notification when I go to shut down the PC. This is where the Update and Shut Down option shows up. No options to refuse unless I do a hard shut down via the switch, or holding down the start button on the box for five seconds.

[gman5250]

Back before I moved to Win 10 my trusty Win7 install started wading through tar with resources heavily used despite my not doing anything. It was a Google process bogging down in the background and once killed from the Startup list Win 7 was its normal sprightly self and I forgot about it. Have a look for background garbage, automatic update searching and suchlike...

Shift + Restart gets you to menu for Safe Mode and other diagnostics etc

I've actually spent quite a bit of time looking at the processes etc. during one of these events. I was looking specifically for Google or other data harvesting ops who might be utilizing my resources. I can never really pinpoint any particular thing that stands out. They all seem to be fairly benign...during the event.

Interesting thing today Tom. I booted in this AM and noted that, although I did go to black screen for a minute or two, I did not lose functionality of my desktop icons or task bar. The mouse roll over triggered the appropriate highlighting of the icons. The weird thing was my display configuration. The desktop screen appeared to be in the default display mode, rather than using my NVIDIA control panel options. I went into the CP and noted that although the Use NVIDIA Settings was ticked I was actually in the Other Applications Control Settings mode. I discovered this when I went to nudge the gama slider and the tic switched over to Other Applications. I corrected the tic and my screen popped back to my custom NVIDIA settings.

Seems like during system boot, there are random bits that are not integrating properly into the OS. Each day there are different anomalies, and some that are consistent like the memory leak. This points me back to Win10 and a borked update.

Interesting though.

I have a good friend who pointed me to a different version of Win10 that is more stable. I've resigned myself to a complete overhaul, but I'm going with the stable version and hopefully that will give me some time to do a bit of actual work. lol

For today and tomorrow, if I can keep the system stable and we don't have any power loss with the wind and storm, I'll putter along with projects that don't require Max or CS6. I've got a ton of autogen to do for KRNO. It's like a root canal...but at least the SDK is steady.

Just to keep this thing in perspective... P3DV3.4.9.18400 along with the current NVIDIA driver is performing the best I've ever seen. The sim is running at max, all the bells and whistles, ASN live weather at full saturation, over bone crushing 2X autogen saturation photo real HD scenery, in the F2A with it's high poly count and high res texturing. The sim never misses a beat, it's absolutely smooth with no of the OOMs or other typical sim related buggers. I usually lock FPS at 60 for smooth video capture, but if I let it go unlimited I'm seeing 60-80 FPS. I've never seen it perform like this over my high demand scenery.

It's the darndest thing.

[AussieMan]

Gordon,

Not sure what version of W10 you are using but I am using W10 Professional and I am finding it very stable.

[gman5250]

Gordon,

Not sure what version of W10 you are using but I am using W10 Professional and I am finding it very stable.

I'm running Professional. In some areas it's steady as a rock, but since this thing cropped up with Max after the last update it's just all over the place.
I really like the interface in Win10, and I want to be in a current platform. I'll see if the fresh install from disk will help.

[gman5250]

Follow up.

After a few days and quite a few hours of thrashing and flogging through the various possible causes of the memory leak, I've probably isolated the cause.

When Max seizes up it becomes necessary to use Task Manager to shut down the program. I get a blue screen error message saying...

IRQL not less or equal.

It looks like a have a damaged driver...somewhere, even though I have taken the time to check and update all of my hardware and software drivers. So...looks like a complete re-install is going to be the only cure.

Hope this new data helps others avoid any problems on their systems. :encouragement:

[Bjoern]

Win 10 usually provides the faulty driver dll's name on the BSOD screen, so with a quick web search for the error message, driver dll filename and "Windows 10", you should be able to get to the bottom of it.

A complete reinstall should be the last resort. You don't disassemble your entire car because a flat tire either, do you?

I have a hunch that it's maybe the driver for your Intel (wireless) network chip (if you have one) as I had both my old Thinkpad and brand new HP notebook throw a BSOD on me after upgrading to Win 10's 1602 version whenever I've used WLAN for a prolonged time. According to a web search, it seems to be a fairly well known issue to boot. New drivers for the (W)LAN chip from your computer's manufacturer or Intel's website should fix this. They might have done for me, but I still need to test this some more.