F-80 Texture Redux

[Mach3DS]

I've contacted Willy and he was gracious enough to provide me with his masters for the new textures he's doing. Just the panel lines and rivets etc. I've gone ahead and added bump maps and specular and fresnel. The bumps need to be lessened a bit but my recipe is good. First pass with Willy's handy work and my bumps with Alphas made from the bump masters. Once the bump height is refined this will be awesome....makes this old model look almost new! I made the bare aluminum textures based off of the masters Willy sent also. Just a few additions and subtraction and a few layers. WIP.

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8705/27810306943_11d48281aa_o.jpg

[Willy]

That's looking great!

[Mach3DS]

Thanks Willy! This was a quick test with the Tanks 1 model and your master panel lines set with some additional skin bumps. The spec is not pulling enough light and I realized I need to layer mask some panel lines in the diffuse that I don't actually want to see other than the bump. This was perfext. Exactly what I was hoping you'd send . Thanks!

[Willy]

Glad I got it right!

[Mach3DS]

I'm thinking about making this TP compatible with weight selected drop tanks....any takers? ;) should prob ask first if anyone is already working on a version of it? Henk?

[Stickshaker]

Yes, Rick, that would be very nice!

[hschuit]

PM has been sent.

[huub vink]

Really nice work guys! :encouragement:

[Mach3DS]

Work progresses...going to be really sharp this one! Need to add some dirt and scratches in the spec. Still WIP. TP to come! Thanks to Willy and Henk on this project.

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8635/28454892296_01cd215703_o.jpg

[falcon409]

Work progresses...going to be really sharp this one! Need to add some dirt and scratches in the spec. Still WIP. TP to come! Thanks to Willy and Henk on this project.

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8635/28454892296_01cd215703_o.jpg


Brilliant work.

[JensOle]

Great stuff! Looking forward to see some colourful post war schemes :-)

[Stickshaker]

Looks very good, Rick! Will the plane also have the improved VC textures that I understand are in the works?

[Willy]

Great stuff! Looking forward to see some colourful post war schemes :-)

I've got a few gigs of reference material for F-80s from Jan 1945 in Italy to post Korea that are waiting on this native model. And some "what ifs" that I've been sitting on for almost a year now.

Doing Fords now while I'm waiting lol

Rick, it's looking great. Is that the metal textures I sent? They sure look different there.

[Mach3DS]

Willy, yes these are the base texture set you sent me with some modification on my end to create a color set that would best use the alpha channel to.convey the look and feel of aluminum. The bumps were created directly from your panel lines and rivets with an additional layer added by me which gives the skin some metal grain within the bump. The diffuse texture alpha was createdoing by modifying your base textures ans creating the alpha channel. I've also added a fresnel overall which will allow a more realistic reflection on all painted aircraft where you can see the reflection only on very off angles close to 90 degrees.

I'm dialing in the wings specuar now so it shouldn't be too much longer!

[Mach3DS]

Dirt layers added....not complete...still WIP....

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8466/28271594020_962bc31b92_o.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7572/28271594190_6078b14bc5_o.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7719/28271594410_3df88bb1bc_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8830/28271594550_d0c799c9fb_o.jpg

[docjohnson]

Any update to this project?

[delta_lima]

Pure magic, Rick.

Looking forward to this.

CM

[heywooood]

Pure magic, Rick.

Looking forward to this.

CM

I must have missed the memo...which P-80 is this? Piglets?...or new

[Mach3DS]

Redux of the freeware Alpha F-80. :)

[Mach3DS]

Here's the update:

I'm reworking the bare metal textures and created the bump maps. I'm going to create custom speculars. This will serve as the base for any following repaints. I'll then turn the PSD's over to Willy and he'll apply his paint shop to the exterior since he's been busy already. Henk has been gracious enough to provide the updated model. I edit that model.further to allow for correct material application. The final touch will be to have at minimum Tacpack Pack powered guns and weight enabled stores.

[Mach3DS]

I should clarify that that is the vision...however i think k a few logistical items need to take place first. But those are not on my end. I'm just helping with the textures and eventually the tacpack if it gets that far....right now it's WIP.

[heywooood]

Redux of the freeware Alpha F-80. :)

ahh- Thanks for the clarification. Looks like a ton of new detail and an incredible go at replicating a polished aluminum surface. Beauty

[Mach3DS]

Here's where I'm at....almost ready to pass the ball back to Willy! Yay! This is raw video and yes I forgot to set flaps...oops....that's texturing for ya!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXqm0dtSvXI&feature=youtu.be&fmt=22

[Mach3DS]

Are you able to see this in HD? I was having issues....let me know own and ill try to rectify it!

[hschuit]

Looking good there! No problem watching the video - just click the "Watch on Youtube.com" icon to see it in HD.

[Willy]

It's looking great. I've been down with some kind of stomach bug the past couple of days, but I did get started on a couple of F-80s doing what I could without the bare metal bits.

[Mach3DS]

Ok, I think I'm there....99% Just need to tweak the wings spec a touch. Then I'll wrap up all the PSD's into a nice paint kit format and send them off to Willy! And so that it's easy to place the painted parts directly into the correct spot. Then anyone can paint the beast! You can see the difference between this soon to be released chromated aluminum and the reflective natural aluminum in the screen with the Milviz F-86. trying to go for a different look in the F-80.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8593/28618065955_c57e496dfc_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8850/28539090161_372c33948c_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8316/28618066715_ef845556ba_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8223/28585123926_f52f1aa354_o.jpg

[Mach3DS]

Flying the saber beside the shooting star really goes to show the difference between the first-generation Jet and basically 2nd generation jet fighter. The Sabre is so much more the airplane. Nimble and more powerful. Not to mention aesthetically pleasing!

[Jafo]

Flying the saber beside the shooting star really goes to show the difference between the first-generation Jet and basically 2nd generation jet fighter. The Sabre is so much more the airplane. Nimble and more powerful. Not to mention aesthetically pleasing!

I think 'they' got it right with the F105D .....have loved its shape since I first saw a photo around 1960 ...;)

[Willy]

I must be weird as I've always like the first generation jet fighters.

[hschuit]

I must be weird as I've always like the first generation jet fighters.

I must be weird too, always found this jet quite attractive, even as a humble Kansas ANG target tug ( thanks to falcon409 for the hi res paint ! )

https://s5.postimg.org/njlp5nrvb/Alpha_F_80_C_KSANG.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/si97k6vo3/)

[mig21bis]

Rick, looks fantastic in the video. I'm glad to help with TP - let's define the desired end result with this F-80, and see if my TP knowledge matches up (or not!).

You are a texture master, so remember that the F-80 was used by The Acrojets, one of the first USAF demo teams. I think the sim world needs a four-ship of those!

On the model, any way to remove that thick cable that is a crude representation of a radio aerial? Invisible is probably better than too thick, if a choice must be made. If impossible to remove, can it be lightened in color considerably? Or made reflective to almost disappear?

Toby

[Mach3DS]

I'm going to have to send the model to Henk and Willy in order for them to have textures work correctly but also for Henk to be able to modify it a bit more...if possible? Henk, is it possible to allow for each type of drop tank to be selected from a single aircraft...that way we don't have to assign materials except to the drop tanks models and not the entire aircraft? If it's possible to add the bombs...then we could have a single.model that incorporates everything and Toby could add Tacpack to it? I know that may be an easier said then done question....

[hschuit]

Rick, you need at least 2 sets of models because the F-80B has a different exterior than the F-80C. As for the F-80C, it is not difficult to make a single model with payload weight configurable bombs and 3 tank options (standard Lockheed 165 gallon, Misawa 260 gallon and fletcher 230 gallon tanks).
At the moment the F-80B radio aerial is welded together with some other parts sharing the same black texture (CPit_Gray). With some effort it can be separated and removed or assigned to a different material texture/color to make it less pronounced.

[Mach3DS]

Copy that. I'll convert the F80C as well then. It really shouldn't take.that much effort. I'm going on 9 days of vacation so I should be able to get this all oit by end of weekend! Hopefully! Thanks!

[hschuit]

Copy that. I'll convert the F80C as well then. It really shouldn't take.that much effort. I'm going on 9 days of vacation so I should be able to get this all oit by end of weekend! Hopefully! Thanks!

No need for you to convert the C model, if you can share your converted B model, I can copy the material properties over to the C model.

[Mach3DS]

Perfect! I'll send that to you after work today. Big thanks!

[hschuit]

(...) On the model, any way to remove that thick cable that is a crude representation of a radio aerial? Invisible is probably better than too thick, if a choice must be made. If impossible to remove, can it be lightened in color considerably? Or made reflective to almost disappear?

Toby
Toby, is this better? I reduced the thickness of the aerial 50%. If I make it thinner it is only visible if zoomed in very close.

https://s5.postimg.org/aw5xt5cyf/Alpha_F80_B_aerial.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/6a9tksrf7/)

[Mach3DS]

Henk check your PM

[Willy]

The panel lines I sent Rick were for a A or B model as I was mostly doing B models when I did them. There's a few small differences for a C, but I could easily send those on if needed.

[Willy]

Here's a work in progress F-80C. Just the fuselage so far, but the wings and tail will be standard F-80 stuff with no special markings. The wing tanks will be different as well. I messed around with this one last year, but couldn't seem to get the sharks mouth to look right. It's got a few small adjustments to be made, but it's pretty much ready for some new shiny metal.

[Mach3DS]

Excellent work Willy! I just got the new models back from Henk...If you can send me the panel lines for the "C" model, if they are different...then I can make the bumps for It.

[Willy]

Won't take but a few minutes. Got to remove one panel & screws on the tail and add a vent on the fuselage.

[DennyA]

Thanks to all of you guys working together on this! It's beautiful and I can't wait to take it for a flight or 20!

[Willy]

You are a texture master, so remember that the F-80 was used by The Acrojets, one of the first USAF demo teams. I think the sim world needs a four-ship of those!

Toby

All 4 were done for FS 2004 as a set with a modified aircraft.cfg. I've got them and the credits are for G. Flores of Midnight Aviation but I think I probably got them at FlightSim. I wish I did know who he is as for FS 2004, they're pretty good work. I've had a mind to do them for FSX myself for a while, but there's a bunch more ahead of them if I ever do get around to them. And I'll need to research them a bit more before I could start. It's a pretty simple paint scheme, but I do have a few concerns about coloring etc.

[Mach3DS]

All 4 were done for FS 2004 as a set with a modified aircraft.cfg. I've got them and the credits are for G. Flores of Midnight Aviation but I think I probably got them at FlightSim. I wish I did know who he is as for FS 2004, they're pretty good work. I've had a mind to do them for FSX myself for a while, but there's a bunch more ahead of them if I ever do get around to them. And I'll need to research them a bit more before I could start. It's a pretty simple paint scheme, but I do have a few concerns about coloring etc.

Yes, I'm too busy to produce actual paints for this one outside the work I'm doing now. I'll leave it to Willy and anyone one else to populate the paints...Willy's got some good ones in the pipeline and Toby will likely be able to get TP enabled for a pretty good redux release of this great freeware aircraft. A little TLC goes a long way!

[bob407]

Thank you gentlemen for all of the work you are putting into this project. Very much appreciated and really looking forward to it.

Repaint wip....your paintkit is going to be a major help with this.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41118&stc=1

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41117&stc=1

[Willy]

I've got several paint schemes that I did last fall "roughed in" for redoing now along with a few new ones.

Guess I need to figure out the Fletcher tank mapping for the ANG ones.

[Mach3DS]

The way it stands now:

1. Fletcher tanks and the ANG birds are one model.

2. F-80B is one model with selectable drop tanks by weight

3. F-80C is one model with selectable drop tanks (x3 variants, standard, misawa round tip, Misawa pointed) by weight. And selectable bombs by weight.

The Fletcher tanks are a seperate texture file on their own. I haven figured out the Misawa ones yet. Need to add specuar to those.

The paint kit is almost ready. I'm just need to create the C model bumps for the fuselage. We're almost there!

[Mach3DS]

Thank you gentlemen for all of the work you are putting into this project. Very much appreciated and really looking forward to it.

Repaint wip....your paintkit is going to be a major help with this.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41118&stc=1

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41117&stc=1

Bob I want our glass to look like yours currently it does not. That would be my final fix to the materials.

[bob407]

Bob I want our glass to look like yours currently it does not. That would be my final fix to the materials.

Greetings Rick. I will PM you in the morning with info on the glass fix. Glad to be of any help. Btw your metal textures are absolutely amazing! Awesome work!

[Mach3DS]

Here's how a alpha modified ORIGINAL texture looks now with the new materials in the model and the specular and fresnel added. I think it looks fantastic for such an old model!

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8601/28382046860_0c754d8965_o.jpg

[Mach3DS]

Bob, no problem...I think the glass is fixed now. I got a new model from Henk today. Thanks for the willingness to help out. It's definitely appreciated!

[Mach3DS]

BTW, please ensure you are using BananaBob's ENVmap as your FSX default Environment map and Global_AC_Chrome and Global AC Chrome Test files. or the results will not look as they should. I've optimized the textures to use these high contrast files....or at least use one that has a lot of blue/green in the file to provide a contrasting color. white clouds are not going to give you the results you'll be expecting.

[bob407]

Bob, no problem...I think the glass is fixed now. I got a new model from Henk today. Thanks for the willingness to help out. It's definitely appreciated!

Rick that is looking great! Went ahead and sent you my fix anyway....who knows, might help in some way. I'll definitely check into the envmaps you're suggesting - very interesting. Really like the F-80. Thank you again Rick, Willy, and Henk for putting your excellent skills to work on this project.

[Willy]

As a comparison to Rick's screenshot of the original AlphaSim textures and to get feel for how it's all working together now, I did a quick and dirty redo (from scratch) of the same 94FS "Hat in the Ring" aircraft using the new model with speculars and the bumpmaps. The textures were a bit light in color which is just a matter of playing around with it all, but to say I'm impressed is an understatement.

Hope I've got plenty of paint in store room. I think I'm gonna be busy for a while.

Edited to add: This was using my old paintkit just to see how it would work out. I'm thinking Rick & Henk's is gonna work much better.

[mig21bis]

Here's how a alpha modified ORIGINAL texture looks now with the new materials in the model and the specular and fresnel added. I think it looks fantastic for such an old model!



Stunning transformation, Rick!

Henk, yes, that wire looks great now! Thanks much!

On FDE, am I recalling correctly that this model developed a flutter at high speed? I think I remember solving that on my copy long ago, using MOI mods.

[hschuit]

Stunning transformation, Rick!

Henk, yes, that wire looks great now! Thanks much!

On FDE, am I recalling correctly that this model developed a flutter at high speed? I think I remember solving that on my copy long ago, using MOI mods.

The FDE also got an overhaul to adapt it for FSX. Do not expect Bernt Stolle level quality but at least it handles well in the sim and thrust, take off / landing speeds are roughly right :mixed-smiley-010:

[Willy]

I was working on a couple of FDEs for it at one time and still have them squirreled away some wheres. One for a early P-80A (or YP-80A) and the other for a late P-80B. I'll have to see if I can find them and dust them off.

[Willy]

Got the shiny bit figured out (I think), although I think I went a little overboard with it on this one. Just doing kind of a generic F-80 till I get the paint kit sorted out like I want it.

[Willy]

The FDE also got an overhaul to adapt it for FSX. Do not expect Bernt Stolle level quality but at least it handles well in the sim and thrust, take off / landing speeds are roughly right :mixed-smiley-010:

Back in the CFS 1 days, we would call that "reasonably right".

[Mach3DS]

The trick with the panel lines is to make them light...lighter than you would think. Then when you create the Alpha Channel create a new image and place the alpha you want then copy the panel lines from the main Paint kit on top and make sure they are all white....this will give the illusion of dirt without having to actually make the "dirt" as painted on. (Which is kind of what it looks like you may have done?) Additional dirt can be made in the diffuse of the paint kit if it's a really dirty bird. Then flatten that alpha image and import it into your paint kit that way (if you're using Photoshop). The same trick can be used when creating the custom specular...however the speculars I shipped to you and Henk should suffice, unless you want to do something completely different! Looking Great!!!! hopefully the PK is working for you! I tried to Copy the layout of the M2M M2KC as I think it's a super easy to use PK and very well done organizationally.

Willy, do a search for Alternate ENVmap and BananaBob if you haven't already.

[Willy]

Thanks for the tips. I used the supplied alphas as a base layer for the new ones with the painted bits on them.

I experimented a bit on the fuselage there with adding just enough noise to the metal base textures to be noticeable if you looked closely at them. On the panel lines, I'd made those just a bit darker than the surrounding metal on the main texture. I'm still playing around with it getting it sorted out. Once I have the metal where I want it, the paint itself will go much faster.

I do have Photoshop, but use Paint.net as I find it more intuitive for me. I can covert back and forth between the two with no problems.

[Mach3DS]

Looks very good! Your paints will be superb I'm sure. :encouragement:

[Willy]

Still plugging away at it in my spare time. Took one that I recently did an update to and had the layered texture files in a folder still and worked it into the mix. Just the fuselage section here and there's a few more things in the back of my mind that I want to try, but here's what I've got going this morning.

[Stickshaker]

Very nice! Hard to believe that this is merely a mod of the original model, and not a completely new one.

[glh]

Ditto Mr. Stickshaker's comments. Everything you have published looks absolutely great.

As was said, it's hard to believe it's NOT a new model.

[Mach3DS]

UPDATE:

Weight dependent drop tanks and bombs are complete. Thanks to Henk! Alpha, specular and fresnel are added as materials. The paint kit 99% complete and Henk and Willy both have it. Just need to add Tacpack. Shouldn't be long now! Fantastic paint Willy!

[mig21bis]

Hey, Willy: my dad flew in the Big 22 at Bitburg - I need that stunning paint, please! He'll love having his very own F-80, now that you model/texture wizards have reworked this baby.

Is there anything I can do to help on the TP part?

[Willy]

Hey, Willy: my dad flew in the Big 22 at Bitburg - I need that stunning paint, please! He'll love having his very own F-80, now that you model/texture wizards have reworked this baby.

Is there anything I can do to help on the TP part?

At that time buzz numbers were the norm for USAF aircraft, but somehow the 36th FG got away with using nose numbers instead. (I've got a bunch of reference pics). Any particular nose number or tail number?

[Willy]

UPDATE:

Weight dependent drop tanks and bombs are complete. Thanks to Henk! Alpha, specular and fresnel are added as materials. The paint kit 99% complete and Henk and Willy both have it. Just need to add Tacpack. Shouldn't be long now! Fantastic paint Willy!

Thanks Rick! That paint kit is making a world of difference in how I've been painting them. Still working on getting the shine where I want it. Gonna try a new angle this morning.

[mig21bis]

At that time buzz numbers were the norm for USAF aircraft, but somehow the 36th FG got away with using nose numbers instead. (I've got a bunch of reference pics). Any particular nose number or tail number?

My dad flew F-105's at Bitburg, mid-1960's, and the closest thing to an F-80 was the squadron's "instrument currency" T-33. I appreciate your thought, though, Willy!

[Willy]

No Problem! As usual, I got confused and was thinking you were saying that your Dad flew the F-80 in a 36th FG Sqdn.

[mig21bis]

No Problem! As usual, I got confused and was thinking you were saying that your Dad flew the F-80 in a 36th FG Sqdn.

My fault, got so "hyper" seeing that bee on your jet that I forgot to specify. Showed my dad your work, he loves it and wants me to install the old Alpha F-80 once you guys are done with the enhancements. As an F-100 driver, he helped with the Milviz project, and got spoiled by Rick's beautiful reflectivity work on that new, unpainted aluminum. Seeing that also happen with these "ancient" models is really sweet.

Most of us military drivers flew machines that had been pretty well used by the time we got our hands on them. Our fantasy, especially on the fighter side, was to fly brand-new jets, clean and slick (no external stores). Thanks for letting us live the fantasy in the sim world.

[Willy]

Usually, I use the guys I fly online with as a "sounding board" when I've got some doubts about a paint. The thing about the not so shiny is pretty much what I got from them on that last screenshot. "Overbaked" was one comment. Which I've got agree with. I've been fiddling around with the alpha layers this morning to tone it down a bit, but still keep the shine if that makes any sense. I think I've got it pretty close though.

(I'm retired Navy and we didn't fly very much bare metal aircraft that I was around).

[Willy]

Still plugging away at it in my spare time. I've got the 4 main textures (fuselage, both wings & tail) matching color & shading along with the alpha layers for them. Working on the speculars now and then it will be alphas for the speculars. Also set up the dirt/grime layers for easy use as well. My plan is to get everything I can on the master layered files so all I should have to do is add the paint scheme and adjust everything to where it looks acceptable. Right now what I've got is a generic F-80 that's morphing into "factory fresh".

I made the mistake of reading the SDK on texturing and now have just enough knowledge to be extremely dangerous to myself and others. The paint kit now has a bunch of new layers so I can use the one layered file for multiple uses (texture, alpha, specular & the specular alpha) Should save a lot of copy & paste that way although it does jack up the file size.

Also got a new (to me) book on F-80s in Korea with lots of good color pics. I've just skimmed through it a bit so far, but it looks like there's a lot of good paint ideas in there along with some corrections for ones I've done before.

[Willy]

A brand new factory fresh F-80 on it's first test flight. Got a few minor issues, but nothing that will require any reworks.

[Mach3DS]

Fantastic Willy! You'll have to share the final Paint kit with me you're ready. Looks great. One additional thing. I've set the fresnel ramp in the material properties of the model to control the angle at which the reflections show. By playing around with the fresnel gradient (in more ways than simply a straight solid to light gradient) and by adding color to the gradient you can change the outcome of the final product quite a bit. Don't be shy in experimenting. What I provided was simply a best fit for that one aluminum skin but doesn't mean it'll work for every paint. Especially those with a lot of painted areas.

[Willy]

I think it's pretty close to ready. I just want to get a few out the door to make sure.

[SSI01]

WOW!!! Incredible! There's just something about those plain metal early jets. You are going to put out a plain metal, unmarked aircraft along with the other textures, when the time comes, right?

[Mach3DS]

Yes I have one included already. I will release it unless it goes out with the final product. Willy has one also I believe. It's up to him if he releases his. The nice thing is that there are so many ways the plain metal can look...depending on condition of the aicraft.

[Willy]

The Factory New one above is intended for release. Right now I've got a complete makeover of the default 94thFS "Hat in the Ring", 49-547 "Evil Eye Fleagle" from late in the Korean War, the 36th FG from the Berlin Airlift pictured in this thread and a couple of what if's based on the idea if the Pacific war had continued on into 1946-47, all very near being finished. Plus a bunch more that I've got enough reference material to do as well that I've got a start on along with some more what ifs. I was in the process of having just started painting a run of portover F-80s when I found out about this FSX Native redo, so I shifted gears to them.

Edited to add: Expect to see some dirt on the operational ones.

[Willy]

Just finished the makeover for the default 94FS "Hat in the Ring" F-80. When Rick and Henk release the package, I'll release it as "replacement" textures for the default.

[Willy]

Just finished "Evil Eye Fleagle" FT-547. Ran into a few issues getting the sharkmouth lined up where it wrapped around under the fuselage but it's done. Now I know why AlphaSim never did it with "Beer City Special". Things are a little out of kilter in that area.

Oh and the metal is a bit shinier than what it appears in the screenshots.

[hschuit]

Wily, thanks for the screenshots, nice to see the progress. I will disable the self shadowing for the radio aerial, it looks weird don't you think?

[SSI01]

A whole new airplane. Really looking forward to this one!

[Mach3DS]

I've sent the package off for TP integration...When I get the files for TP back I will package the whole thing up with Henk's current Readme updated to reflect TP addition and with the credits. I'll send those files (not the whole thing) to Henk who can then release the package after any last minute model corrections. Not too long now I imagine!

[Willy]

Finished paint for the one in Post 65 on page 3.

Got a couple of "what if"s up next.

[Sundog]

That looks amazing. Those textures are definitely going to breathe new life into this old bird in my sim. Thanks to everyone who worked to make these upgrades.

[mig21bis]

I've sent the package off for TP integration...When I get the files for TP back I will package the whole thing up with Henk's current Readme updated to reflect TP addition and with the credits. I'll send those files (not the whole thing) to Henk who can then release the package after any last minute model corrections. Not too long now I imagine!

Back from a trip today, and realize Rick is probably talking about me on the TP integration side. Will get on it and complete ASAP.

[Willy]

A couple of what ifs based in the premise of the Pacific War lasting a year or so longer.

[Willy]

Baby Doll II, 49-819 (51st FIG, 16th FIS), shot down by ground fire near Chorwon May 12, 1951.

This one turned out to be a bit troublsome. I couldn't find a good copy of the crest on the tail and after a couple of days of searching decided that it would have been easier to just repaint the thing myself. So I took the best copy I had which was badly blurred and made my best guess at it.

[Mach3DS]

Great Work Willy!

TP has hit a small snag...however I'm sure we will resolve it. very close to being complete. Willy High res textures are great as you can see in the screens below. Willy, I substituted your specs for the ones with the bare metal scheme just as a matter of preference/taste on my end. In no way is it a reflection of the quality of work. Your paints are superb in every way. F-80 lovers owe you BIG TIME!


One last screen...not like the others.


https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8618/28966018865_1b5b214512_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8870/28889710911_8306d3a3ec_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8694/28966018635_662283bb18_o.jpg

[mig21bis]

Hey, guys - superb looking exteriors on the F-80. It's like a new production, pretty exciting what you guys can do to reinvigorate an old model. How many others like this could benefit? These will be outstanding to fly in formation.

Rick's right, I have hit a wall with TP implementation. The approach I'm using is based on Salty's method with the MiG-21MF. Has worked well with other old models that we use as adversaries in our beta testing. Not working with the F-80, though. It seems that the gauge that drives our weapons selection and firing maybe is being prevented from running? Is this possible?

I've tried many things today, including isolating systems, eliminating all other gauges, debugging/syntax tools. Is it possible that coding related to the model is somehow preempting my gauge?

If I port this over to other planes, it works. Correct ordnance and numbers. Frustrating!

Toby

[Butcherbird17]

Hey Rick,
Is that F-80 one of those new Transformers? Sure looks liked it morphed from straight wing to swept back.:wiggle:

Joe

[Mach3DS]

Hey, guys - superb looking exteriors on the F-80. It's like a new production, pretty exciting what you guys can do to reinvigorate an old model. How many others like this could benefit? These will be outstanding to fly in formation.

Rick's right, I have hit a wall with TP implementation. The approach I'm using is based on Salty's method with the MiG-21MF. Has worked well with other old models that we use as adversaries in our beta testing. Not working with the F-80, though. It seems that the gauge that drives our weapons selection and firing maybe is being prevented from running? Is this possible?

I've tried many things today, including isolating systems, eliminating all other gauges, debugging/syntax tools. Is it possible that coding related to the model is somehow preempting my gauge?

If I port this over to other planes, it works. Correct ordnance and numbers. Frustrating!

Toby

I tried a little troubleshooting today but hinestly I don't know TP implementation too well...no success. One thing I do think os that because our stores are built into the model to appear by weight only the exact weight will work. The hardpoints need to match in the model code exactly to the stations in the aircraft.cfg...so that could possibly be an issue...but im not 100% sure.

[Mach3DS]

Hey Rick,
Is that F-80 one of those new Transformers? Sure looks liked it morphed from straight wing to swept back.:wiggle:

Joe

Yeah its a hybrid! Just messing around with Ito's F-86D. Added bumps and specular and alpha....this one is not really in work...after messing around I just don't have the time to take on this project but the does show that even a SUPER OLD model can look much much better with correct matetials applied.

[Willy]

Rick, I just tried your speculars and I'm now sitting here thinking that I should have used those from the start lol I like the look with yours much better.

[mig21bis]

I tried a little troubleshooting today but hinestly I don't know TP implementation too well...no success. One thing I do think os that because our stores are built into the model to appear by weight only the exact weight will work. The hardpoints need to match in the model code exactly to the stations in the aircraft.cfg...so that could possibly be an issue...but im not 100% sure.

Rick, I thought same thing and eliminated the stations that allowed external stores to appear in aircraft.cfg, leaving only the TP stations. Still didn't work.

[Willy]

Still trying out new ideas with the paint kit and adding more detail as I find it to use. Right now I'm fiddling with the large Fletcher tanks (like on a T-33) to get more detail into that. (can't leave well enough alone) There's some ANG F-80s that I want to do that will need those tanks.

[Willy]

Ya know, it's about as easy to paint 4 at the same time as it is one as all I had to do was use the same layered file and change the numbers as I went along.

[mig21bis]

TP update:

Looking at another approach ChrisP used and reported on in the VRS Support Forums - takes functionality from the FSXBA F-18 Hornet and adapts as necessary.

Does anyone know of a tool that can tell us if a specific gauge is running while live in the sim?

Anyone else seeing flickering of gauges on the left side of the VC panel? I'm running in P3Dv3.35.

[Mach3DS]

TP update:

Looking at another approach ChrisP used and reported on in the VRS Support Forums - takes functionality from the FSXBA F-18 Hornet and adapts as necessary.

Does anyone know of a tool that can tell us if a specific gauge is running while live in the sim?

Anyone else seeing flickering of gauges on the left side of the VC panel? I'm running in P3Dv3.35.

Yes I have flickering gauges T. Glad I'm not the only one! Not.sure the cause though. Eventually I'll likely substitute a different VC from my collection in its place. Something more detailed and still period. But obviously that's not the solution for everyone. So we'll have to resolve that...if we can...

[Mach3DS]

Just had a thought...

The reason TP may not be working is that we have 3 seperate models in the package. B,C, ANG with Fletcher Tanks. Perhaps this is why it's not working? The other TP models are single 3D models with selectable ordinance...ours is 3 models with variable ordinance e and or drop tanks...

[Willy]

Might be related to the TP issue or maybe I just screwed it up somehow, but with the Acrojet textures, I tried to alias them first to one of them (FT274), then to the shared textures folder. This was so I didn't have to have multiple copies of the wing and tail textures in there. Each texture folder held it's own fuselage textures as that was the one that was different between the four.

Fired up FSX and went to test and they were all using the fuselage to FT 274 instead of their own fuselage textures. So it apparently it was aliasing to all the textures in the 274 folder and not just ones missing in the others.

[mig21bis]

Just had a thought...

The reason TP may not be working is that we have 3 seperate models in the package. B,C, ANG with Fletcher Tanks. Perhaps this is why it's not working? The other TP models are single 3D models with selectable ordinance...ours is 3 models with variable ordinance e and or drop tanks...

Good thought, but I think I've controlled for that by eliminating all but one model as testing progressed. Also eliminated the "loadout" stations, and stripped out all other gauges. So, it truly is just TP running, and on just one model.

Last night, finally got it working using ChrisP's alternative approach posted on the VRS Support Forum. Drawback is that it's aimed at F-18 function, and need to be scaled way back for the F-80. Being able to fire rockets and guns was a relief, though. Will continue pressing in that direction, though Salty's approach is much cleaner for our purposes.

[mig21bis]

Might be related to the TP issue or maybe I just screwed it up somehow, but with the Acrojet textures, I tried to alias them first to one of them (FT274), then to the shared textures folder. This was so I didn't have to have multiple copies of the wing and tail textures in there. Each texture folder held it's own fuselage textures as that was the one that was different between the four.

Fired up FSX and went to test and they were all using the fuselage to FT 274 instead of their own fuselage textures. So it apparently it was aliasing to all the textures in the 274 folder and not just ones missing in the others.

Did one of you add the weapons/tanks loadout capability to the model? If so, maybe I'll go back to the original and test that with TP to see if the new model might be the source of the TP problems. If we can isolate the issue, it can probably be resolved. I'll press ahead with trying to adapt ChrisP's method, since at least it works.

A bonus: I figured out how to run TP and non-TP options in the same aircraft package, so simmers can choose each flight. It's an option, if you want it as part of the release package.

[docjohnson]

I'm probably in the minority, but I do prefer that an aircraft be integrated with TP capability. I have been following this project and have two questions: 1. Will it be compatible with P3D v3, and 2. is there a projected release date for this fine aircraft?

[Mach3DS]

I'm probably in the minority, but I do prefer that an aircraft be integrated with TP capability. I have been following this project and have two questions: 1. Will it be compatible with P3D v3, and 2. is there a projected release date for this fine aircraft?


1. Yes. I use P3Dv3 exclusively. So all my screens are from that sim

2. No. But it is close. Now that we know TP works...we can figure out the quirks that need to be solved. By we I mean primarily Toby and Henk! Since I'm useless in that arena! ...ok not completely useless...

[mig21bis]

I'm probably in the minority, but I do prefer that an aircraft be integrated with TP capability. I have been following this project and have two questions: 1. Will it be compatible with P3D v3, and 2. is there a projected release date for this fine aircraft?

Me too on P3Dv3, docjohnson. I'm doing all the TP work in that sim, so you'll be good to go when we get it released. I think DierctX12 is the way to go to maximize the incredible "body work" that these texture wizards have put on the revised model - another great reason to use the latest sim version.

Note on Zuni 5" rockets: TP has them leaving a funky dual flame and smoke trail which I'm afraid looks silly. What do you guys think about going with 2.75" rockets instead, which look more like what one would expect when launched?

[Willy]

Just for reference, I'm flying FSX Steam Edition.

[mig21bis]

TP update: corrected a path error in the ChrisP code, got gun sound working. Using generic machine gun sound - if anyone has something they think is better, like a battery of 50's, relay to me and we'll plug it in.

So now, gun, rockets, bombs are operating. Rocket launch azimuth/elevation needs correcting.

Next is cleaning up syntax errors in the gauge code itself, positioning weapons so they spawn at the right place on the aircraft, and creating a 2D Window with the key combos to invoke and change weapons.

[Willy]

Tac Pack sounds like fun. Where can it be found?

[mig21bis]

TP update: corrected a path error in the ChrisP code, got gun sound working. Using generic machine gun sound - if anyone has something they think is better, like a battery of 50's, relay to me and we'll plug it in.

So now, gun, rockets, bombs are operating. Rocket launch azimuth/elevation needs correcting.

Next is cleaning up syntax errors in the gauge code itself, positioning weapons so they spawn at the right place on the aircraft, and creating a 2D Window with the key combos to invoke and change weapons.

Corrected rocket elevation. Weapon spawn positions now roughly correct, at mid-wing where the hard point would be. I think I'll add a vocal confirmation sound when selections are made, like "Bomb Selected", etc. Need a positive confirm that you're in each mode, I think.

Willy, internet search "VRS TacPack" and you'll find it fast.

[docjohnson]

Thanks for the update. And its a fine tribute to the men who flew it in combat and those that kept them flying.

[mig21bis]

I agree, this is a way to honor our brothers who went before us. And any fighter puke you went through Weapons School is going to want one of our new F-80's painted like these, from the very beginning of the Nellis program. With guns, rockets and bombs, we're ready to join the class.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/USAF_Fighter_Weapons_School_F-80_44-85182.jpg

[Willy]

That shouldn't be that hard of a paint scheme to do.



I agree, this is a way to honor our brothers who went before us. And any fighter puke you went through Weapons School is going to want one of our new F-80's painted like these, from the very beginning of the Nellis program. With guns, rockets and bombs, we're ready to join the class.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/USAF_Fighter_Weapons_School_F-80_44-85182.jpg

[mig21bis]

Got most of the TP work done, and it's functional. Got gauges and model loadout stations back in, things are stable. I've set only one axample in the library for TP, and of course we can decide how best to handle that. Just wanted to show you how both TP and non-TP can be part of same package. Let me know how it works on your side.

More enhancements would be nice: visual effects for gunfire, sounds for bombs/rockets. I'll keep dabbling, just wanted to get the basic system in your hands.


There is still a lot of syntax error and extra code that could be trimmed, but return on effort is low unless it needs to happen for function.


Toby

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B735H-KPtnBURG1TNjU0ZTN2eGs/view?usp=sharing

[mig21bis]

TP Update: cleared up another error tonight, which was causing the SIMCONNECT banner error message in-sim while flying. Got the "Hornet FCS" removed. Will keep chipping away at the extraneous code that results from the ChrisP method outlined on the VRS Support Forum - thanks to him for getting us over the initial hump, though. I was stuck without his initial approach.

Can one of you guys figure out how to put a pipper/reticle on the combining glass?

[hschuit]

TP Update: cleared up another error tonight, which was causing the SIMCONNECT banner error message in-sim while flying. Got the "Hornet FCS" removed. Will keep chipping away at the extraneous code that results from the ChrisP method outlined on the VRS Support Forum - thanks to him for getting us over the initial hump, though. I was stuck without his initial approach.

Can one of you guys figure out how to put a pipper/reticle on the combining glass?

I do not know anything about TP but assuming the pipper could be added as a gauge in the panel.cfg, the interior model needs to be updated with an extra VC plane on the gunsight glass. When I have more time I will look into it.

[mig21bis]

Thanks, hschuit. Would be so great to have a gyro sight for this model, but for this initial release am looking just for a static reticle "painted" on the combining glass. An example would be what SectionF8 did on their old Sabre. Having a reference point will greatly aid aiming.

I am using the base model for TacPack, but that was just by default. Can be changed, if needed.

[hschuit]

Toby, I added a simple static pipper, it can be toggled with a clickspot in the lower left corner of the gunsight - check your PM.

[mig21bis]

Outstanding, Henk! Thanks!

I wonder if flickering of gauges on left side of panel might be a setting in P3Dv3? Mip maps, dynamic shading, or the like? i can see the flickering only happens in what appears to be a rectangular area that partially overlays several gauges. Could that be a clue? Maybe an attribute of that plane in the VC model?

[mig21bis]

Henk, you fixed the flickering! It is no more, great work.

I cannot activate the gunsight/reticle - hovered over all parts of the gunsight assembly in the VC, cannot find anything clickable.

[hschuit]

Henk, you fixed the flickering! It is no more, great work.

I cannot activate the gunsight/reticle - hovered over all parts of the gunsight assembly in the VC, cannot find anything clickable.

To save time, I used the existing clickable area from the instrument panel plane just outside the gunsight. The gunsight itself does not have a clickable area. I will add an extra clickable area plane on the gunsight model.

[Mach3DS]

Update:

Henk and Toby have been working hard on allowing a TacPack model to coexist with the standard models. They've succeeded! Henk has really outdone himself. Many additional features. Just a simple screen showing manual ripple release.

Getting closer gents...

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8255/29026845431_05fc3e5296_o.jpg

[bob407]

Coming along mighty fine! Thank you gentlemen! :encouragement:

[mig21bis]

Tested latest updates and gunsight works great in VC, Henk! We appear to have full function in all other gauges too, so we've avoided creating conflicts in the system.

I see the trim wheel has been relocated down at bottom of panel. I plan to put a mark on it for takeoff trim, as the model is significantly nose heavy otherwise. We want this model to rotate easily at the correct speed, and setting trim will help.

It's probably a good time to lock in our improvements with a new package. I'll combine Henk's recent improvements with my changes / streamlining of TP-related code, and get it out to the test team via PM.

I'll repeat a question I asked about rocket type earlier: the 5" rocket generates twin flame/smoke trails when launched, which to me looks silly. Should we replace with the 2.75" rocket, which looks better? I think TP models damage differently, and it appears that the F-80 used the 5" in combat, but that twin trail looks weird from the cockpit. Check Checkers (https://www.ladysavings.com/publix-weekly-ad/?checkers/) and Dischem Specials (https://www.ladysavings.com/publix-weekly-ad/?dischem/). Should we deviate from reality on the ordnance in order to achieve a more real-looking flame/smoke trail?

Toby

[mig21bis]

TacPack update: trimmed away more unused code. In process of adding audio confirmation of weapons selection and safe mode. "Gun selected", "Rocket selected", etc. Also will add rocket launch and bomb drop sound effects.

[Willy]

Thought I'd add a little more Lockheed porn to this. Just finished this one less than an hour ago.

[mig21bis]

Beautiful, Willy! Would be so great to get in formation with you guys in MP with these incredible paint schemes. I guess we need a good smoke effect for the demo teams?

[Willy]

I've been using the exhaust smoke for R. Richardson's Sea Venom. Nice dark early jet engine smoke. Just like they used to do.

[mig21bis]

Current smoke effect for our P-80 looks thin and wispy in P3Dv3. It's there, but probably not the more robust, realistic effect you guys are seeing in FSX.

[hschuit]

Current smoke effect for our P-80 looks thin and wispy in P3Dv3. It's there, but probably not the more robust, realistic effect you guys are seeing in FSX.
Toby, try this:

[mig21bis]

Thanks, will replace with this smoke and see how it looks. Rick, you're running P3Dv3 too, see what you think about this smoke versus the one currently used.

Willy suggested we look at other gun/tracer effects out there, and see how they're done. I can see, for example, that Tim Conrad used a smoke effect technique on his Skyraider to create muzzle flashes - can try that approach, unless Rick finds something more promising in his search.

[Mach3DS]

This is fantastic Gentlemen. Toby, all TP features now work flawlessly for me in P3Dv3. With our extensive beta testing TP for other aircraft, I think it's fair to say in all likelihood it should be code 1 in FSX? I will indeed look for a solution for muzzle flash effects and tracers.

[mig21bis]

Rick, I retained FSX with TP, will test to verify Code 1 on that, good thinking to nail that down.

[mig21bis]

I confirmed, TP function is perfect in FSX/A.

[mig21bis]

Toby, try this:

Henk, that new smoke looks better in P3Dv3 - thicker/larger diameter that seems to match the tailpipe, not thin like previous.

[Mach3DS]

Toby, I can't get the smoke to work...can you enlighten me?


All, here's a beautiful update set of screenshots...Willy has outdone himself. Some of these I thought looked like a real picture at the time when I was taking the screen capture...P3D looks so good with REX!

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8017/29171387005_898abb83fb_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8542/28884113570_aa2410812d_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8503/29171386415_04dbf550f1_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8035/28884112280_7820e1d3d4_o.jpg

[Mach3DS]

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8302/28884112730_99f883f8e0_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8235/29171386645_c8a74d7ea4_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8543/28884113090_a3df6ddcea_o.jpg

[Willy]

Now that's better than porn!

[mig21bis]

Beautiful, Rick! That dramatic sky is fantastic, as you observed - REX adds great realism.

Smoke: engine smoke doesn't work for me either in the TP version, but works and looks fine in the non-TP ones. I think TP is impeding smoke, due to the "SMOKE_ON" and "SMOKE_OFF" commands associated with the gun. And I need that in there to tie to muzzle flash / tracer effects I'm building in now.

If we can figure out a way to have one smoke effect always playing, and the others controlled by the TP gun control, we'd have everything. I'm sure we can figure this out, just don't know how much more time we have.

For now, I think I need to focus on getting the flash/tracer done, so we can put a bow on this project and release. We can go back with improvements later, maybe as an SP1?

[hschuit]

Toby, I can implement multiple smoke channels. Example:

smoke.0 = engine smoke
smoke.1 = TP guns flash
smoke.2 = TP guns tracer
etc.

If you can share the xml code which controls the TP effects I can integrate it with the existing engine effects code.

EDIT: Don't worry about it, I found it in the FA-18C.xml file you added to the panel. The gun only needs 1 smoke channel, piece of cake. I will share the updated files later today for testing.

[DaveWG]

You can control multiple smoke effects individually. I'm not at my PC at the moment but I'll check on the correct syntax when I get home.

Edit: looks like it's already in hand.

[mig21bis]

You can control multiple smoke effects individually. I'm not at my PC at the moment but I'll check on the correct syntax when I get home.

Edit: looks like it's already in hand.

DaveWG, your input is much appreciated. It might be good to look at your approach, as it may prove useful yet in this project, or may be useful in the future.

[Mach3DS]

DaveWG, your input is much appreciated. It might be good to look at your approach, as it may prove useful yet in this project, or may be useful in the future.

Toby if I understand correctly, I believe that what Henk posted is what/how Dave was.suggesting to.proceed.

By the way. For.those that want every model in this pack TP enabled, all you'll have to do is change the panel callout in the aircraft.cfg. Very handy. Thanks Toby and Henk!

[mig21bis]

Toby if I understand correctly, I believe that what Henk posted is what/how Dave was.suggesting to.proceed.

By the way. For.those that want every model in this pack TP enabled, all you'll have to do is change the panel callout in the aircraft.cfg. Very handy. Thanks Toby and Henk!

You're right, Rick - just had a quick PM back-and-forth with Henk, and he had modified both sides of code (I thought it was just aircraft.cfg, and we might still hit snags with the TP side). He's ahead of me, and all is on track. Once we verify his approach works, I'll just plug in the muzzle flash/tracer effect where he's currently using smoke as a placeholder, and we'll be done with that part.

I have two of the six machine gun effects in place, lined up. Four to go, it's a little tedious... I'm glad you pushed for it, adds a lot to the visual experience.

[Mach3DS]

One I started today...

For post release.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8065/29083351572_dcff263580_o.jpg

[PRB]

That's beautiful. New life for a classic! :encouragement:

[mig21bis]

Love the large squadron insignia, Rick. Let's not forget to fly these things - more fun than working on them, and this model is probably sweet in formation (and at the gunnery range).

[Willy]

Looking good there Rick. And I can scratch that one off the list!

I think for the next few Shooting Stars, I'm going to go back to 1944-45. I'm more into the pre-Korea ones anyway.

[falcon409]

How close to release? Looking forward to putting my liveries on the new exterior.

[Willy]

How close to release? Looking forward to putting my liveries on the new exterior.


Soon?????????????????

[Mach3DS]

STATUS:Here's what's left to do before we can release it.

1. Toby is aligning the gun muzzle effects and tracers to the guns.

2. Henk is competing the code for gun smoke and engine smoke for Tacpack use.

3. Write a brief usage text and Readme file.

3a. Test it! To make sure it works!

4. Compile the paintkit (which can happen later).

[falcon409]

Soon?????????????????
LMAO, that's always a good one Willy. Also just wondering. I'm "Pro-Simple Aircraft", so as far as this TP thing. . .will the airplane be released as an "either/or", or is it just TP and that's it?

[Mach3DS]

It's both. Willy and Henk don't have TP. So it's able to use it if you have it. If you don't the TP features simply won't work. Model still has drop tanks and bombs selectable via hard point weight.

[Willy]

Ed, I'm with you on the simple thing. One reason I like the early jets. They hadn't learned how to hang all the extra stuff on them yet. That said, watch Toby work with TacPack and learning about it's features, I'm probably going to get it.

But I will say one thing. I've learned (and still learning) quite a bit about FSX aircraft design during this project.

[mig21bis]

Ed, I think we're all with you. The goal with TP is to have it there in the background, passive, doing its job only when a simmer activates it. That said, it is a real hoot to go to the gunnery range with these old jets, hitting panels and bullseyes using the old-school methods. Even better, multiplayer with a wingman or two, in the gunnery range pattern, watching your buddy's run and grading his performance on the radio. Then form back up and RTB in these beautiful machines. Just one more dimension to what is already a fantastic experience in FSX or P3D.

We've kept the TP implementation very simple on this model - minimal BS, maximum fun.

[falcon409]

Ed, I think we're all with you. The goal with TP is to have it there in the background, passive, doing its job only when a simmer activates it. That said, it is a real hoot to go to the gunnery range with these old jets, hitting panels and bullseyes using the old-school methods. Even better, multiplayer with a wingman or two, in the gunnery range pattern, watching your buddy's run and grading his performance on the radio. Then form back up and RTB in these beautiful machines. Just one more dimension to what is already a fantastic experience in FSX or P3D.

We've kept the TP implementation very simple on this model - minimal BS, maximum fun.
Great, looking forward to it. Thanks

[Mach3DS]

TacPack Powered...

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8281/29211010395_f303741ae4_o.jpg

[Mach3DS]

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8863/29211726495_00d75c61f3_o.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8213/29177470936_b7b9105eb1_o.jpg

[mig21bis]

The finished F-80 is now up and available for download - it was an honor to work with these guys on a worthy old model, looking forward to the next one.

See you at the gunnery range, or formed up looking sharp for the overhead break!