The Big Bang Theory

[Lionheart]

I heard something pretty funny today from a TV pastor I have been watching more and more of.

If you think about the big bang theory, technically speaking, the odasity of the concept is about the same as igniting an atomic bomb... and when the dust clears, here is this brand new Boeing 747 sitting there, batteries charged, full of fuel, GPS humming, gauges all working, brand new with shiny paint.

lolololol.....


I love that. Makes sense to me.


He states that some scientists are now rejecting the big bang theory and evolution for a new concept called smart design, stating that they feel we 'came from somewhere/something, an intelligent source'.



Bill

[Pepere]

Scientists are are smoothing the landing of the truth about UFOs! They being the "intelligent source". Just a thought? :faint:

In reality God did it, He's just "so shy" wont show His face - or at this point is not very proud about how we've turned out.... God only makes good things we are good, but sometimes "not so good". :friday:

David :kilroy:

[cheezyflier]

I heard something pretty funny today from a TV pastor I have been watching more and more of.

If you think about the big bang theory, technically speaking, the odasity of the concept is about the same as igniting an atomic bomb... and when the dust clears, here is this brand new Boeing 747 sitting there, batteries charged, full of fuel, GPS humming, gauges all working, brand new with shiny paint.

lolololol.....




I love that. Makes sense to me.


He states that some scientists are now rejecting the big bang theory and evolution for a new concept called smart design, stating that they feel we 'came from somewhere/something, an intelligent source'.



Bill

this is a concept we discuss regularly at oso's. i would welcome your input there. there are few christian viewpoints presenting themselves as it is. another would be nice.

[Odie]

The Big Bang theory: God said "BANG!" and it was.

[Joe P]

Have you seen Ben Stein's movie "Expelled"? It deals with the politics in universities, and how some professors have been removed because they won't toe the line on the Big Bang Theory, and Evolution. I really enjoyed it, and highly recommend it.

[cheezyflier]

i wanted to see it but couldn't i hoped to find it on dvd but it sure aint in my local blockbuster

[Naismith]

Have you seen Ben Stein's movie "Expelled"? It deals with the politics in universities, and how some professors have been removed because they won't toe the line on the Big Bang Theory, and Evolution. I really enjoyed it, and highly recommend it.

"Expelled" has been widely discredited, just one reason why it was not generally available. There are many others.

[Togo]

Until someone come up with a reasoned argument I'll stick with the big bang and Darwins Origin of Species by Natural Selection.:wave:

[TomSteber]

"Expelled" has been widely discredited, just one reason why it was not generally available. There are many others.

Give me some sources that discredit the movie.
I have a guess as to where they may be from but I'm staying as open minded as I can. I would like to see this movie as well. My step-daughter saw it and said it was really good.

Of course she's a christian, but so am I.

I for one have no problem with the "Big Bang".
I just think it was the Creators way of getting things started.

Oh, I could go on and on, on this one but work is calling.

Peace,
Tom

P.S. Great avitar (Big Zappa fan. Not for his views but his music. I'm a musician)

[Joe P]

How can "Expelled" be discredited? The point of the movie is that "Academic Freedom" no longer exists when opposing viewpoints are removed from teaching courses. It is not trying to disprove the Big Bang Theory or Evolution, only that all parts of the argument should be heard, and not instantly disallowed because others disagree with the hypothesis. Richard Dawkins is interviewed representing the Athiestic side of the argument, and other scientists and such are interviewed representing their sides. This is a very balanced and interesting movie, and like I mentioned earlier, I highly recommend it.

I got it at Best Buy, and I'd consider that generally available.

[stiz]

one thing makes me chuckel about with science in general ... is that in the end its all guesswork, and we all know that in 5 years time they woulda changed their minds about it anyways, so much for the human body explodeing due to gforce in a modern warplane (Said in the 1930s) :173go1:

[Togo]

Joe P.
Sorry to have to say this but I think the only "opposing viewpoints" are " creationism and ID, (the same thing), which belong in a religious class and not in a science class.
Listen to Ken Miller on Youtube, he's a commited christian

[idancesafetydance]

Here's what I think about the BIG BANG... scientists may be able to theorize the actual event. But they can't really explain WHAT caused it. That's the whole in their theory. "oh yeah the big bang was real" ""soo... what cuased it?"" "well.... you see.." ""God?"" "no, no, no you see, nature, gravity and force, and particle bands snapped and exploded" ""you sure about that?" I'm sure there WAS explosion, but the inciting force that caused it was... welll... God. O.o IMO.

[MyassisDragon]

I tend to be a bit simplistic on this. When it comes to matters of science, I choose science. When it comes to matters of religion, I choose religion. I try very hard not to mix the two as, historically, it has rarely worked out well for either when mixed.

[Naismith]

Give me some sources that discredit the movie.

P.S. Great avitar (Big Zappa fan. Not for his views but his music. I'm a musician)

Just some http://www.google.com/cse?cx=017254414699180528062%3Auyrcvn__yd0&q=expelled+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fscienceblogs.com%2F pharyngula%2F

[ICDP]

A science vs creationism debate can go nowhere but down IMHO. I would respectfully ask that the thread be closed by moderators.

[Lionheart]

I dont see the harm in bringing up such an interesting 'realization'.

That a 747, brand new, no dents, fully fueled, could be born out of a huge explosion seemed quite commical to me. Thats all.

:d




Bill

[Nausicaa]

I dont see the harm in bringing up such an interesting 'realization'.

That a 747, brand new, no dents, fully fueled, could be born out of a huge explosion seemed quite commical to me. Thats all.

:dBill

The "747 out of nowhere", "the painting can't exist without the painter" and similar arguments of creationists result from a misconception of the theory of evolution. Evolution exists because it implies chemicals that can reproduce themselves over billions of years and try multiple forms. Neither the 747 or the painting can do that.
It is often thought wrongly that evolution is a linear process. Nothing is less true. Evolution is trial and error, with many dead branches and it moves sometimes slower and sometimes faster. This has been proven.
But I would invite anyone to come down to Oso's for this, we often have this kind of debates ! :)

[Snuffy]

Where did the chemicals come from?

[ICDP]

I dont see the harm in bringing up such an interesting 'realization'.

That a 747, brand new, no dents, fully fueled, could be born out of a huge explosion seemed quite commical to me. Thats all.

:d




Bill

I have no problem with debate. I do have problems with people who refuse to correctly read up on a subject and therefore cannot possibly fully understand the concept. Fundamentalist Christians love claiming evolution is not a fact, not because they know or understand how evolution works but because it challenges their faith.

Faith:

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/belief), trust (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/trust).
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

Faith by very definition relies on blind obedience and actively encourages believers to ignore any facts that contradict the teachings of religion. Faith is not just some word to religious people, it is a way of life. For example creationists believe the world is only a few thousand years old, despite ALL relevant scientific facts stating the contrary. Creationitsts believe dinosaurs either did not exist and the fossils of dinosaurs were either.

1 Planted by god as to test their faith
2 Planted by satan as test to their faith
3 Co-existed with humans (like the Flintstones!)

When someone refuses to accept ANY facts or proof to challenge their faith they are not worth debating with because they will NEVER open their minds to the possibility they are wrong. Science on the other hand always strives to find answers and to increase knowledge and understanding. Science can admit it is wrong and will frequently do so. Science is not about knowing everything instantly, it is about finding reasons why stuff happens. It isn't pure guesswork based on opinions it is the result of painstaking experiments and research. It is not based on some hokus pokus myths written a few thousand years ago.

Remember that science keep pushing forward and challenging the accepted status quo as laid down by religious leaders. Les than four hundred years ago we were told by religious authorities that the earth was the centre of the universe. Would anyone here even remotely argue that that is true?

The problem with fundamentalist christian religious belief is that it is has a blinkered view of the origins of the universe. If it doesn't match genesis it is lies and slander. No debate required, no merit awarded, just defined as lies based on nothing but the superstions and myths from an old story book called the bible.

Thankfully there are enough rational people in the world, people who are not afraid to throw off the intellectual blinkers imposed by their religious upbringing. People who don't accept goddiddit as a rational sane answer to important questions.

[jmig]

...
I for one have no problem with the "Big Bang".
I just think it was the Creators way of getting things started.
Peace,
Tom





Where did the chemicals come from?

Energy Snuffy, not chemicals, Energy! http://sc.webmessenger.msn.com/10.1.0323.0/session/images/emoticons/smile_wink.gif

The two quotes above succinctly express my beliefs. As the Catholic Church as stated, the Big Bang theory and the creation story expressed in the Bible easily exist side-by-side.

The Big Bang and evolution is God's method of creation. So the idea of an intelligent design is not far fetched.

The other thing that I try to remember during times when my faith sucks is this. Where did the singularity of pure energy come from? Even if you subscribe to the mostly outdated theory of repeated big bang-collapse-big bang ad infinitiem. You will eventually come to a time of the first big bang. So where did the energy come from?

According to the first law of physics, energy can be neither created or destroyed.

[stiz]

When someone refuses to accept ANY facts or proof to challenge their faith they are not worth debating with because they will NEVER open their minds to the possibility they are wrong. Science on the other hand always strives to find answers and to increase knowledge and understanding. Science can admit it is wrong and will frequently do so. Science is not about knowing everything instantly, it is about finding reasons why stuff happens. It isn't pure guesswork based on opinions it is the result of painstaking experiments and research. It is not based on some hokus pokus myths written a few thousand years ago.


but then, buy saying sceience is the only truth, isnt that refuseing to accept any other answers or possibilitys? which for all you know might well be true? At the end of the day, when it comes to the big question about how the earth was created, what really happened etc, no one has any idea.

Also for example, why does 2+2 have to equal 4? what if the person who invented maths, which is the language of science, decided it should equal 22, that would change everything a little wouldnt it :)

[Ickie]

The Universe, could it be so simple. "Multiverse's"
The Universe, could it be so simple.
All my life, I have been thinking of space, the universe, and what it all is about.
I believe our understanding of the universe is flawed. I feel there are other universes out there very far away and beyond our comprehension. These other universes are so far away light has not reached our universe. I feel our universe was created 13+ billion years ago by an exploding black hole which got to heavy and exploded. I believe there are more of these giant black holes out there.
Think of space, as a substance and our black hole exploded in it, (like a bubble in water), that is our universe, the bubble. Everything we know and think about is in this bubble. This is where the 30 pounds of vacuum comes from.
Black/Dark Matter: The 5X (5.477225) unknown, known only as Black/Dark Matter is just the vacuum of space, tugging on the matter. I noticed this is not included in any of the formulas.
30 (pounds of space vacuum) divided by 5.477225 = 5.477225
I also believe the Black/Dark Matter may be the substance outside of our bubble.
Space Travel: First off we all think of the speed of light, well I believe matter cannot travel that fast, so matter would have to be changed to a light wave than back to matter, we all know this isn’t possible. The answer: a species would have to have a long life span to travel between planets, plane and simple. Humans have doubled their life span in the past 5000 years, so maybe 100,000 years from now we just might be a species capable of travel to the stars. Note we have trees in California that are 500 years old.
Other Species: Yes indeed life does exist on other worlds, it just could not be that we are the only planet with life. Do the math.
Time Travel: It just is not possible, in order to do time travel, the whole universe (our bubble in space) would have to go backward/forward in time as well. The power it would take to do this is more than the entire power in the universe.

Ron Larson June 26, 2008

[Snuffy]

Energy Snuffy, not chemicals, Energy! http://sc.webmessenger.msn.com/10.1.0323.0/session/images/emoticons/smile_wink.gif

According to the first law of physics, energy can be neither created or destroyed.

Yep, where did the energy come from then?

And who or what, implimented the law of physics? :help:

[ICDP]

but then, buy saying sceience is the only truth, isnt that refuseing to accept any other answers or possibilitys? which for all you know might well be true? At the end of the day, when it comes to the big question about how the earth was created, what really happened etc, no one has any idea.

Also for example, why does 2+2 have to equal 4? what if the person who invented maths, which is the language of science, decided it should equal 22, that would change everything a little wouldnt it :)

You misinterpret my meaning Stiz, I am not proclaiming science as truth, I am pointing out that science/knowledge is the pursuit of facts. Science seeks to find the facts and reasons behind what we already know to be true. For example we already know we are here, we exist. Science seeks to find out the answers as to how we got here. If everyone simply accepted goddidit as a viable answer we would never find out the facts.

Your following statement is very narrow minded and is not based remotely on the truth. (I must point out I am not accusing you of being a lyer just that your opinion is not backed up by facts.)

"At the end of the day, when it comes to the big question about how the earth was created, what really happened etc, no one has any idea."

Even some rudimentary research into what scientists already know regarding the origins of the universe would show you that your statement could not be further from the truth. With the current technology available we are discovering new planets, newly born stars and galaxies at the furthest reaches of the observable universe. These telescopes effectively look back in time to how things were being formed in the universe 14 billion years ago. From hundreds of observations watching young solar systems form it has become far more clearer how planets are formed. Planets like our own fine Earth. Here are some links to give some further insight into how planets are formed and on the search for exoplanets (planets around other stars).

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/spitzer_planets_041018.html

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/planet_formation_020709-2.html

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/articles/article/A-Whole-New-Planet/

http://discovermagazine.com/2005/jul/cover/?searchterm=how%20planets%20are%20formed

http://discovermagazine.com/2000/mar/cover/?searchterm=how%20planets%20are%20formed



You can either make generic blanket statements that are not remotely based on facts or you can endeavour to find these things out for yourself. The universe and the world around us are amazing and wonderous things. We are finding out more and more about them on a daily basis. I personally do not need to associate these wonderfull things to the concept of God. I have a totally God free life and ever since I turned my back on religion God and Jesus and all other things mythical my mind has been so much clearer and willing to see the facts.

[Lionheart]

Some interesting and amazing concepts....

It can really strain the noodle at times to think and ponder on things that have been so mysterious for so long. I am sure Einstein would love to be in on this conversation.


Even the concept of time makes for a good debate. For instance, the Air Force acknowledges 12+ dimensions or universes (per a USAF General at a banquet where my mom attended for Phoenix State Government). If each Universe or Dimension (or both) have different time elements (laws or physics or both or neither), then that adds to the equations...


My theory on space travel is that there are other ways to go from here to there, or from when to when, or from perspective to perspective.



Time... Creation.... Elementals of reality both physical and thought... Deep subjects...




Bill

[Silver Fox]

To have this discussion you really have to understand what science is... and most people lack even a basic concept.

Science attempts to prove nothing, ever. Science cannot and, will not, ever "prove" a single thing.

What science tries to do is disprove. Falsifiability, the ability of something to be tested and proven false, is the core tenet of science. If we understand this we can see how science and religion can never mix, they operate on different basic premises. People turn to religion looking for answers, they turn to science looking for questions.

We can't scientifically look past the Big Bang because the physical properties of the Universe froze in the first few hundred milliseconds. We lack an observational position to see past that event. Lacking that viewpoint we can't create a falsifiable theory of what caused the Big Bang. We may eventually may be able to theorize a viewpoint and base a theory of what came before on that... but it will always be weak because it requires two sets of underlying assumptions.

Bill, the answer to what you found so interesting in the TV Pastor is found in the USAF General's comments. The Universe did come into being with a fully flight ready 747... but only in this reality. All other possible outcomes are both allowed and required. The only thing that makes us think this one is special is the anthropic principle. The Universe did not come into being for our benefit, we came into being because it was possible.

[hews500d]

Very interesting thread. Having been interested in astronomy since way back when I can't count the number of times I have stood outside looking at the night sky and all the wonders associated with it and tried to fathom how exactly all this came to be. Although I do not consider myself a very religious person (I do believe in God) I have often wondered since He created the universe, how exactly was He created, has God always existed since the beginning of time? Then when exactly did "time" begin?

Deep subject..

Darrell

[TomSteber]

Just some http://www.google.com/cse?cx=017254414699180528062%3Auyrcvn__yd0&q=expelled+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fscienceblogs.com%2F pharyngula%2F


That's about what I thought.

[TomSteber]

That's about what I thought.

As in who dicredited the movie Expelled.

Still gonna watch the movie and enjoy the hell out of it and nod my head a lot!

[Willy]

I just think of all the accidental coincidences that occured and how everything had to be just right for life to exist here (even more for humans to come into being) and it seems to me that there had to be be some intelligence helping things along. To me that has to be God.

[OBIO]

I am the walrus...coo coo cachoo

Debate that!

OBIO

[JoeW]

I still think that we come from a visit long ago by some visiting beings from a galaxy far away. They had picnic and left some scraps and garbage and we are the out come of the bacteria that was contained in that garbage.

[ICDP]

I still think that we come from a visit long ago by some visiting beings from a galaxy far away. They had picnic and left some scraps and garbage and we are the out come of the bacteria that was contained in that garbage.

Sounds far more plausible and believable than the goddidit delusion.

[Silver Fox]

Willy, thank you for a very precise demonstration of the anthropic principle in action. :)

[Cazzie]

I still think that we come from a visit long ago by some visiting beings from a galaxy far away. They had picnic and left some scraps and garbage and we are the out come of the bacteria that was contained in that garbage.

Who do you think you are kidding Joe, we were the "untouchables" of their society and they just got tired of feeding and housing such worthless creatures, so they brought us here to fend for ourselves. Even though we have managed to kill far more of our species than any other species has of its own on this planet, we have still maintained an ever growing populace due to the fact Homo Sapiens do not rut or pick selective breeds! :friday:

Caz

[Shadow Wolf 07]

hmmm The Big Bang Theory wasn't that a film with Albert Einstein and Ginger Lynn? :faint:


I am the walrus...coo coo cachoo

Debate that!

OBIO


"I am the egg man..."

[Toastmaker]

Our inate intelligence prompts us to want to know who we are, why we're here, how did we get here and where are we going.

Given the exponential advances in human knowledge and the speed of technological leaps, I've often found myself irritated that I won't live long enough to see some of the more fantastic answers and inconcievable discoveries that are literally just around the corner !!

[viking3]

Our inate intelligence prompts us to want to know who we are, why we're here, how did we get here and where are we going.

Given the exponential advances in human knowledge and the speed of technological leaps, I've often found myself irritated that I won't live long enough to see some of the more fantastic answers and inconcievable discoveries that are literally just around the corner !!

:amen:

Regards, Rob:ernae:

[Silver Fox]

The greatest irony of life Toast... we are seeing some of the most fantastic answers and inconcievable discoveries... we just don't recognize them for what they are.

Many of us were born in the late Industrial Age. The dawn of the Information Age has been astounding, but do we really recognize what a quantum change it really creates?

[jmig]

Willy, thank you for a very precise demonstration of the anthropic principle in action. :)


As I see it, the anthropic principle is no more vested in facts than the religions creations stories.

The religious creation story says that because one million plus things happened precisely exactly at the proper time, at precisely the proper sequence, and precisely at the proper amplitude; shows that there was a guiding hand, i.e., Creator.

The anthropic principle proponents say that that because one million plus things happened precisely exactly at the proper time, at precisely the proper sequence, and precisely at the proper amplitude to have life; shows that man in his arrogance has assumed these things were done for him.

Neither camp can prove anything! It stills comes down to faith. Either faith in a God or faith in coincidences.

[Wiens]

Who created the stuff that the "Big Bang Theory" used to "create' the world and humans?

Kevin

[Silver Fox]

jmig, believers in the anthropic principle fail to comprehend that no matter what form life takes, if intelligence develops then that intelligence will think the Universe was created specifically for it.

Logically, it's much like dropping a glass on the floor and having it shatter... and then reaching the conclusion that gravity was created for the express purpose of destroying your glassware! :)

Weins, I've already covered this from a scientific viewpoint. We lack the capacity to imagine the pre-existing conditions, therefore we cannot formulate a hypothesis of how those conditions came into being. There is one theory that might work though...

If you believe that the Universe will cease expansion at some point and collapse, then it follows that the energy release of the final cataclysm might form a replacement Universe. Think of a sine-wave, zero isn't the beginning, it's the middle. Interesting theory, as yet there is no observation evidence to support it. The destruction of one Universe to form it's replacement also creates an inherent problem... information cannot be passed from one to the other, so even if we could envision the previous Universe... we can't understand it.

Go Figure!

[Lionheart]

If you believe that the Universe will cease expansion at some point and collapse, then it follows that the energy release of the final cataclysm might form a replacement Universe. Think of a sine-wave, zero isn't the beginning, it's the middle. Interesting theory, as yet there is no observation evidence to support it. The destruction of one Universe to form it's replacement also creates an inherent problem... information cannot be passed from one to the other, so even if we could envision the previous Universe... we can't understand it.

Go Figure!



Very cool input Silver Fox.

In the Bible, it says we are not capable of understanding 'the big picture', that we cannot fathom God and other such concepts. When I say that, I mean that the utterly incredible size of the spectrum of the concept is something we were not designed with/for... Beyond our comprehension as a being, we arent capable as a human, to understand such huge concepts..

I, on the other hand, seek to find out more about 'the big picture', about life and the Universe. Maybe I will be one of the few that gets to see the 'blueprints', the 'library', and talk with some of the big guys.


I would like to add something to this thread, one that is a daily interface or interaction with mankind, and still not understood that well.. and that is dreams... How can we meet people and have interesting adventures and remember them in such detail as though we were there??

If we remember in pictures as though we were there, like movie footage, then how can it be that when we drift to sleep, we find ourselves flying in a plane, relaxing on a beach, shopping through a store, having a conversation with a person on wild concepts, then awaken back in our bed?

How in the world does that work???


Think about that one.. Take a moment and wonder, where in the world dreams come from, and 'how' (delivery method = dimension? cable? universe? spirit? wierd chemical? something that was in last nights dinner? a 'program' system that exists 'somewhere' and allows for humanity to learn from? etc....)


That is one I would like to learn more about.. (without the nightmares....)




Bill

[Silver Fox]

I read an interesting sci-fi book years ago that explored the concept that dreams/nightmares were spillovers from parallel Universes. When folks were asleep and most receptive they could pick up the faint signal, guided by what was closest to the mind as it fell asleep.

Interesting concept.

[jmig]

jmig, believers in the anthropic principle fail to comprehend that no matter what form life takes, if intelligence develops then that intelligence will think the Universe was created specifically for it.

Logically, it's much like dropping a glass on the floor and having it shatter... and then reaching the conclusion that gravity was created for the express purpose of destroying your glassware! :)

Weins, I've already covered this from a scientific viewpoint. We lack the capacity to imagine the pre-existing conditions, therefore we cannot formulate a hypothesis of how those conditions came into being. There is one theory that might work though...

If you believe that the Universe will cease expansion at some point and collapse, then it follows that the energy release of the final cataclysm might form a replacement Universe. Think of a sine-wave, zero isn't the beginning, it's the middle. Interesting theory, as yet there is no observation evidence to support it. The destruction of one Universe to form it's replacement also creates an inherent problem... information cannot be passed from one to the other, so even if we could envision the previous Universe... we can't understand it.

Go Figure!

Silver, I have no argument with your analogy. I may not have made myself clear. I am not saying that believers in the anthropic principle are also believers in a Universal intelligence, force, Creator, i.e., God. My reference to "anthropic principle" was for people like Richard Darkins who do not believe in a God created universe.

I am saying that the "anthropic principle" has no more evidence to support it than the Bible's or any other creation story. It too, is based on unprovable assumptions. Science can often discover the mechanism. However it is not a good tool to discover the intent. That is the job of philosophers and religion. In the end it comes down to faith. Faith in God or faith in multiple coincidences, or trial and error.

Faith is the belief in something without proof. Otherwise it would not be faith. The apostle St. Paul expressed it well in his often quoted... three most important things are Faith, Hope, and Charity (Love)... statement. He ends it by saying in the end only Love will remain.

This is because he believed in a Heaven. Once you are in Heaven you no longer need faith, because you have certainty. You no longer have to hope there is a Heaven, because you are there. All that remains is love.

[Cloud9Gal]

The apostle St. Paul expressed it well in his often quoted... three most important things are Faith, Hope, and Charity (Love)... statement. He ends it by saying in the end only Love will remain.

This is because he believed in a Heaven. Once you are in Heaven you no longer need faith, because you have certainty. You no longer have to hope there is a Heaven, because you are there. All that remains is love.


Powerful and beautiful!

Thank you! :)

[Chacha]

Hebrews 11:1 (Amplified Bible)

Hebrews 11
1NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, [a]the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].


-Eli and Hannah

[Lionheart]

Wow Jim and Eli and Hannah,

Some great biblical quotes!




In speaking about 'creationism', there is a book in the Bible where God talks on when He created Earth and the solar system. Now, for non believers, you'll probably say 'riiiiiiiiiiiiiight' and I can see your point of view. But... (but) if you read the parts where God defends Himself, and speaks of how He made things, the hair will stand up on the back of your neck.

For instance, and this was written several thousand years ago, He tells Job, 'Were you there when I set the distance of the Earth to the source of Light?' He talks of 'sculpting the planet, setting up its orbit and making sure its the proper distance from the sun. It sounds like a guy who made a building, how he laid its foundation, sculpted the exterior...

Now, mankind really didnt start talking about Earth being a round planet and the sun being a star until around the time of Columbus and some famous Astronomers, so how could this 3,000 year old scripture be talking about setting up planetary orbits around stars?


So... for the non believers, is there such a thing as creationism? Is there a 'very big Being' that possibly created 'this place' we call home? Could it be that the Architect of Earth visits and actually can talk with the inhabitants?


Some very powerful concepts, and they are not for the ones that do not have the ability to think outside of the box.

A closed mind cannot learn, cannot see new things, understand new concepts. Sometimes.. . learning new things, new concepts, can be the hardest 'road' you can take, and many are not ready. Growing can hurt...





I still think though that the 747 story is hilarious... Huge atomic explosion! Massive... then the dust begins clearing.. and there, sitting out in the countryside, is this big, brand new, shiny Boeing 747-400, fully fueled, GPS and gyros' humming along, systems on, battery systems running, new seats, galleys, state of the art cabin... All from an explosion. ;)



Bill

[Silver Fox]

Wait a minute... gotta call you on this Bill!

Galileo was accused of heresy for suggesting that the Earth was not the centre of the solar system. Simple observation told folks that something was going round... but when the Scripture was written the Earth was flat!

[Lionheart]

Wait a minute... gotta call you on this Bill!

Galileo was accused of heresy for suggesting that the Earth was not the centre of the solar system. Simple observation told folks that something was going round... but when the Scripture was written the Earth was flat!

Ahhhh.. Ok, then how can it be that Shaoel (a 'location' in the spirit world where the dead went to) which was located 'in the center of Earth'. How can you have a center of Earth in a flat Earth?

:d


Also, Babylonian cuniform text tablets have perfect maps and names of all the planets about 3,000 to 5,000 years ago with the sun in the center of the Solar System. But... Back then we had 10 planets.. One is gone now. (Must be the asteroid belt?).



Bill

[jmig]

The ancient Jews and other Semitic people of the area saw the world as a giant rock slab sitting on top of pillars. (Think of the Greek letter pi symbol) The sky was a giant dome called the firmament upon which the stars or lights were attached to fixed tracks. There was water above this dome and rain came through floodgates or holes in the dome.

Beneath the giant slab of earth was Sheol, where the dead went,and more water which made the rivers and seas.

This was the world of the oral Creation stories around 2000 B.C. The even older Babylonian creation story Enuma Elish is similar in its views of the world.

I think one of the Greek mathematicians was the first person to determine the earth was round.

[Cazzie]

Some great profound remarks here.

But I am more inclined to cut myself more "slack". I believe the planet is being led to destruction by a race of inferior creatures who place blind trust in their own culturally dictated concept of "intelligence".

Caz

[Tuor2112]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2>"There are no passengers on spaceship earth. We are all crew."</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

-- Herbert "Marshall" McLuhan

[Henry]

All i Know is the world was here when i got here
and hopefully still be here when i leave :amen:
Folks dont go getting personal here
this is getting into one of "those" threads :gossip:
H

[Willy]

The staff is getting complaints on this thread. Anymore and we'll close it.

[jmig]

The staff is getting complaints on this thread. Anymore and we'll close it.

Willy, would you or Henry please tell us just what is breaching the rules on this thread. It seems to me to be about as benign as anything in this section?

I know that we have had a few threads where people have gotten insulted and feelings hurt. However, IMO this is fast approaching the point where PCism will shut down this entire section.

We are a large group spanning many continents, faiths, ethnic backgrounds, and political view points. This, I believe, has always been one of the strong points of this community. We get to see different perspectives. To learn from one and another.

However, if we are to communicate and educate each other on the various ways of viewing/living life, we need to be able to express ourselves without the fear that someone, somewhere, just might find something we say offensive.

In the above posts I saw two different viewpoints being expressed without proselytizing from either side. I saw more acrimony in the volumes of Chicken Little's, "The sky is falling down" threads about the apparent demise of MSFS series.

I am not trying to make life difficult for anyone, I just want some balance. A balance I fear we are rapidly losing.

[Roger]

A more innocuous thread I could not hope to read. It is interesting, mild mannered and makes a nice read before bed-time. Only Creationists might complain and as the Universe is only some 3000 odd years old for them isn't it a little early to complain? ;-)

[Willy]

Some folks didn't appreciate being alluded to as "delusional" with regards to their religious preferences.


Sounds far more plausible and believable than the goddidit delusion.

[Henry]

This in my opinion
is a thread that i could consider a no no
Religion, personal, has not gone to politics yet
but it mostly has been polite and open
i stand on the fence watching

Quote JMIG
Willy, would you or Henry please tell us just what is breaching the rules on this thread. It seems to me to be about as benign as anything in this section?

a couple of personal attacks

H

[Lionheart]

I never thought this would go to 3 pages, and I also didnt think it would become a serious discussion, but amazingly some very cool ideas came out from all.


But, if people can ruin it for everyone, and everyone but one or two are really into the thread, why cant we 'surgically remove' a particular single post in a thread that was meant as 'malicius' or the like?

That way, a mean person couldnt just go in and close a thread by saying something hot off the top of his head, and a fun thread can continue on without getting crazy.


Just a humble suggestion.



Bill

[Silver Fox]

Seems to me the thread is benign... it "might" offend the religious sensibilities of some... but it has been remarkably civil to my way of seeing things!

Bill, you ask how a flat Earth can have a centre... one word: radius. :)

Also, only a single Babylonian (Seleucus of Seleucia) supported a Heliocentric viewpoint... most Babylonians thought the Earth was the centre of the Universe. To give the Babylonians credit, apparently Seleucus was able to prove his viewpoint correct mathematically... this about 200 years before Christ. Given that Galileo would have to do it again more than a thousand years later... makes you wonder what pieces of knowledge we may have forgotten!

It is fascinating to me, even though I have no religious beliefs, that so many ancient cultures share great similarities in certain parts of the history contained in the Bible. The Great Flood is contained in so many stories that it most probably occurred in some form.